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[Karry]

It seems to me, that it is totally impossible to win a game on U, even WITH savescumming. Its just not happening. The reason is, of course, a V. They present only a moderate threat when bunched up in open space, like Mortuary, "town" type levels are good too, but winning several "labyrinth" type levels, or normal "rooms" - nope, no can do.

How to fight this...hmm...
For example this : changing a minimum exp given for a kill to a fixed amount. Like, for easiest difficulty - no change. For next two difficulties - any monster gives a minimum of 1% of exp. And for the last two - 2% minimum exp per kill.

[n9103]

If your biggest complaint is the Viles (and I don't blame you) perhaps something along the lines of Viles don't rez other Viles would be more suitable, and be less potentially balance disrupting.

[DisaffectedBeta]

One of the things about Viles in the original game was that they took time to use their column of flame and their resurrection power.  So you could run out of sight before you'd be hit by the column, and you could unload on a Vile when it was bringing some minion back to life.  The nicer thing was that, since it wasn't random, you didn't get a bunch of barons clustered around a Vile, who would bring them back faster than you could destroy them.  Balance for me has been getting too many damned high level monsters in huge chunks that are too close (or too quick) for the rocket launcher...

[Karry]

perhaps something along the lines of Viles don't rez other Viles would be more suitable

Viles do not rez other Viles.

Tried AoM on U about 20 times - that is even more impossible thing to win. In fact, you have about 70% chance of dying on level 2, since the game tends to generate 2-4 demons in one room, and thats it, you're dead as soon as more than one of them notice you. You can take EE instead of SoG to take care of captains in coward mode, but then even one demon is death for ya. Not to mention, you will most likely finish level one with less than half of your health.

[DaEezT]

It seems to me, that it is totally impossible to win a game on U[..]

There is one simple answer: The game isn't supposed to be fair or balanced on U.

End of Story.

[Thomas]

The only thing I'm really having trouble with is the arenas.

"Hm. An A. Better take it out. Luckily I've got some time before it springs in to action to engage it in melee." (Not playing a melee game, it's just far safer to have them swinging their arms at you than their plasma rifles)
"Oh, now there's a few barons. I'll get rid of them as the arachnotron does its pathetic melee attack on me."
"Huh, a few mancubi have tracked me down. They hit the arachnotron too. Although now it's out of melee and appears to be frying me."
"Hm. No phase devices. Very well then. Good game!"

This was on M :/

[Karry]

The game isn't supposed to be fair or balanced on U.

Thats just stupid. Considering, that its not even the last difficulty.
Its one thing when you're playing something like Crimsonland, and another, when palying a game that has an actual winning requirement.

[DaEezT]

The game isn't supposed to be fair or balanced on U.

Thats just stupid. Considering, that its not even the last difficulty.
Its one thing when you're playing something like Crimsonland, and another, when palying a game that has an actual winning requirement.

Well, you seem to define "Winnable" as "The game has to be winnable by Karry right now". And that is really stupid because
a) who says nobody else can win the game on U
b) who says that you won't be able to win on U with a little more practice

So the answer still is: The game isn't supposed to be fair or balanced on U (and N! of course).

[Blade]

This time i tend to agree with Karry. 0987 is winnable, i have won it several times, but only after very many tries. I can't even imagine, how to win N! in this version. This version is really harder than 0985, and next one promises to be even more difficult, because of more intelligent AI. Tell me, if it's hard to win now, when monsters die stupidly in lava and acid, when you know that they will try to reach the center of the map in every level, when you know that they will ignore you most of the time when they are standing on item or lever, what will be when they won't make that silly mistakes? Even HMP would be too hard to win.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Actually I aim at the level of difficulty to represent:
1) Easy
2) Medium
3) Hard
4) Elite
5) Not fair

I see U games as a possibility for the best players to have a short run. And Nightmare actually isn't supposed to fit on a scale :P.

[Blade]

I agree that it's fair that N! must be unfair.)) But imho now UV is not for elite, but for people, who tries a lot, and sooner or later forces RNG to create pleasant pack of levels, which player can survive. Surely they must not do silly mistakes too, so this game requires playing skills, but even if you play very carefully and do no mistakes, that not gives you even 25% that you will reach at least level 10.

[Zeb]

I agree with Blade and Karry on this one. The best of the best DoomRL players are currently FAR less likely to survive on U then "elite" players of almost any other roguelike- and you have to be pretty ****ing elite to beat a game like ADoM or Nethack in the first place. Even on lower difficulties, the game currently relies much more on luck than on skill than 0.9.8.5 did- and frankly, I'm just not having fun with this version.

[Karry]

sooner or later forces RNG to create pleasant pack of levels, which player can survive.

Thats exactly it, it is possible to reload a level until there are no V's created.
Also, as i have noticed, savescumming SIGNIFICANTLY lowers the chance of having a special level appearance. For example, while playing on U and savescumming - i only got to Chained Court on level 9, while normally its between 4-7. I savescummed up to about 18, and didnt encounter a single special level after the CC.
Maybe its the intended protection against scumming, but it makes BFG and Armory unavailable, which lowers your chances even more.

Even on lower difficulties, the game currently relies much more on luck than on skill than 0.9.8.5 did- and frankly, I'm just not having fun with this version.

I dunno, the lower three difficulties are rather nicely balanced, i think. Its the upper two that need something done to them.

Actually, i ask second time, did anyone at all play at Nightmare difficulty ? Did anyone even unlock it ?

[Rabiat]

Also, as i have noticed, savescumming SIGNIFICANTLY lowers the chance of having a special level appearance. For example, while playing on U and savescumming - i only got to Chained Court on level 9, while normally its between 4-7. I savescummed up to about 18, and didnt encounter a single special level after the CC. Maybe its the intended protection against scumming, but it makes BFG and Armory unavailable, which lowers your chances even more.

I don't think savescumming lowers the probability of special levels being generated. The game doesn't detect whether a save file is used for scumming after all. So unless you survived each level the first time, you're actually 'selecting' easier levels. Special levels are more difficult, therefore players die more often on special levels. Players revert to a save file when they die, but overwrite the backup when they survive. So the most difficult levels (special levels) tend to occur less frequently in a scummed game once it's completed. It's like being allowed to draw an indefinite number of cards to get a straight flush; works all the time.

[Karry]

So the most difficult levels (special levels) tend to occur less frequently in a scummed game once it's completed.

I really dont think i quite understood that...you claim that the game doesnt check the save, but it is still somehow creating "easier" levels ? Isnt that self-contradicting ?

And in my POV special levels are much easier than normal levels. Mostly because they have a set number of enemies, and you know exactly where all of them are. Also, for example, while playing on U you may encounter your first V on level 6 or 7, but you will never get V's in Armory or Lost City.