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Author Topic: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia  (Read 23197 times)

DisaffectedBeta

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I'm never quite sure how Wikipedia works, but apparently someone is trying to delete the current entry because it apparently has no verifiable sources.  Why they'd pick on a small stub like that I don't know, I guess there aren't enough people to try to get the deletion notice removed, even though some unsourced fanboy entries in wikipedia that manage to resist deletion are relatively horrible.

If anyone knows how to reverse this process, and wants to, I guess now would be the time.
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Rabiat

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2007, 06:52 »

I'm afraid it's a lost cause. This Man in Black character is a moderator and appears to be quite the pedantic edit warring bureaucrat.

But why is there a 7DRL page in the first place? Doesn't seem like subject that would receive a lot of attention, and I think that if people were interested, they'd assume it's too obscure a subject to be on Wikipedia anyway.
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2007, 07:10 »

Maybe it needs to be merged with another entry to increase its survivability, then?  I don't think a subject's obscurity makes it worth deleting.  Roguelike itself seems like a more robust entry, and could possibly just have a little add-on that talked about contests.  I dunno, I rarely dip my pinkie in that wiki trough, myself.
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Rabiat

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2007, 08:20 »

See this page. Main argument for deletion is that "Nobody has ever seen fit to comment on this particular subject in reliable sources". However condescending, he's got a point. It seems you can add comments to that page if you want to prevent deletion. Someone else has also suggested merging it with a bigger subject. But who needs Wikipedia? ;)

(BTW I don't understand how they got 68 hits on google for "seven day roguelike"; I'm getting 700.)
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Zeb

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2007, 22:36 »

I gave it a shot. (My Username is The_suicide_forest)

If everyone with an established Wikipedia account pitches in with well-thought-out arguements, we have a very good chance of at least reaching "No consensus".
« Last Edit: July 14, 2007, 00:36 by Zeb »
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Rabiat

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2007, 04:40 »

Wikipedians don't take too kindly to meatpuppets. ;)

You made a good point though, Zeb. Still I don't believe these guys are going to be convinced about how this article meets their Absolute and Non-negotiable Law of Notability (WP:N!). :p
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2007, 09:50 »

Wikipedia seems goofier every time I learn more about it.  I've seen rather large, unattributed articles that are completely ignored.  Read one yesterday, even.  This nitpicking seems strangely inefficient.  They discourage meat puppets, but technically there's nothing wrong with it since it's bringing in other people to debate an issue.  It's utterly fascinating.
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DaEezT

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2007, 11:47 »

They discourage meat puppets, but technically there's nothing wrong with it since it's bringing in other people to debate an issue.  It's utterly fascinating.
Well said :p
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"Morality is merely a convention with which men mutually agree to delude themselves. There are no moral facts, just preferences, and one is no better than any other."

DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2007, 15:18 »

Sarcasm?
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DaEezT

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2007, 18:12 »

Nope.
I completely agree with what you said and how you said it. Others would have wasted 2 pages to state the same.
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Zeb

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2007, 01:35 »

Wikipedians don't take too kindly to meatpuppets. ;)

Thanks for the heads up, I forgot about WP:MEAT. >_<

I tried looking through that "A Man In Bl?ck " guy's  edit history, I find it interesting that almost nothing he's done in his last 500 edits meets WP:N. I thought about pointing that out, but it's not all that relevant and pointing out the hypocrisies an Admin is a pretty bad idea (as I learned in the Encyclopedia Dramatica debacle) Meanwhile, I plan to keep arguing. Deleting the 7DRL article seems absolutely silly to me.
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2007, 03:16 »

Cheers then, DaEezT.  I was probably defensive because I felt I could have written it better.

You're right not to do that, Rabiat.  Ad hominem attacks don't go anywhere on a reasonable forum.  Sticking to the issue is best, even when the admin is playing inquisitor.

I've avoided taking up an account many times with wikipedia because I felt like it was a wasted effort.  The misattributed or misstated quotes are the ones that really get to me, because that just illustrates sloppy research, but I felt that if anyone wanted to really look up information on a topic, they might, at best, use the dread Wiki as a stepping stone to actually learning about something, as I usually do, instead of treating it as the final step.  Unfortunately, though, we tend not to have time to do full research on a given topic, and human beings are rumor-animals at times, making something that SOUNDS like knowledge become knowledge.  Even when you find out later that a fact you'd heard through the grapevine is false, it's hard to dislodge it from the brain.

I think editorial authority is something too important to ever be phased out, which is why I can't take wiki as seriously as I think its founders would like it to be taken, although I admit I use it quite a bit.
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Rabiat

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2007, 08:03 »

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
This nitpicking seems strangely inefficient.

Just think about the amount of effort and frustration that goes into writing, revising, criticizing and debating these articles. Most of it is simply lost. "Goofy" is the right word. :)

Quote from: Zeb
Thanks for the heads up, I forgot about WP:MEAT. >_<

These Wikipedia acronyms are ironically funny. And at times their lingo is hilarious.

You seem to be holding your own just fine in that mess though. :)

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
I think editorial authority is something too important to ever be phased out, which is why I can't take wiki as seriously as I think its founders would like it to be taken, although I admit I use it quite a bit.

Actually Wikipedia is a very valuable source of information about subjects you don't know that much about. What I find disturbing about Wikipedia is that new contributors are often scared away by some self-appointed authorities, who don't necessarily know anything about the subject, but nevertheless don't hesitate to subject new users to arbitrary rules or formalities: "this is not a suitable subject for Wikipedia because WP:N, WP:POV, WP:A-to-D and WP:XYZZY, so it's got to go. Bye."
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2007, 08:16 »

They are drunk...  on WIKI POWER!!
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Zeb

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2007, 14:32 »

Not related to this topic, but one thing I noticed about Wikipedia is that a lot of people complain (rightly so) about everyone doing pointless articles instead of important ones. I think the reason for this is that every time you try to edit an article with any actual encyclopedic value, it gets reverted by anti-vandals and you have to spend a week in a ****ing internet war just to get your two sentences added. It's waaaaaaaaaay more trouble than it's worth for the contributor. For example, a few months ago I tried adding a paragraph to the "balloon" article about hazards to marine mammals. It sparked a massive edit war that went on for weeks involving about 20 people (~10 to each side) and eventually was solved (I thought) by an admin that let my paragraph stay. I just checked the article though, and my paragraph is gone now. THAT, I think, is inefficiency at it most...uh, inefficient.
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2007, 16:16 »

I'm curious, what was the content, specifically.  You can memorialize it here :)
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Zeb

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2007, 02:23 »

Aw, we failed. ;_;

I just wish we had gotten that usercheck on that Minimiki bastard. He was suspicious as hell.
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2007, 05:46 »

We can still make an entry in the main roguelike section.

I'm guessing some of the more zealous anti-contesters were probably attacked by roguelikes when they were a child, and have been lashing out against them ever since.
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BDR

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2007, 08:58 »

Instead of feeling sad that we weren't popular enough to satisfy the Wikinerds, I prefer to read this site and laugh/gawk at their craziness. :)
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2007, 12:27 »

Duh, CastlevaniaRL got deleted, then GearHead, then finally 7DRL. I recently "protected" DoomRL from deletion (it got speedy deleted along Dwarf Fortress and GearHead). Wikipedia is saad. Now only DoomRL and Dwarf Fortress defend the current roguelike scene. DF is I think safe, but I wouldn't be surprised if DoomRL got attacked again. At least it has some printed sources to defend with :/.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

Aerton

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2007, 19:57 »

Now only DoomRL and Dwarf Fortress defend the current roguelike scene.

Rogue, NetHack, Angband, Omega and others do not count?

Although the deletion trend is quite troubling...
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zaimoni

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2007, 21:12 »

Regrettably, it doesn't seem to just be legitimate recreational articles up for deletion.

I've taken to backing up hard science pages as insurance during the current administrative policy panic (dating back to ~Jan 2007, and ongoing).  I think I've seen some esoteric ones I didn't need get removed for no reason -- so just back them all up, as they clearly have no problems deleting anything that is both not Politically Correct and beyond their limited knowledge.
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BDR

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2007, 22:41 »

I find the whole idea that any sort of pages relating to a topic that actually exists *have* to be deleted because of obscurity ludicrous.  Is Wikipedia in danger of running out of room for more articles?  Are pages that are only visited once every 10 years somehow a threat to Wikipedia security?  Is 'fancruft' a threat to the nature of Wikipedia just because x% of the people aren't interested and thus producing an amount y of content revolving around said topic, or because it somehow makes Wikipedia look inferior to a normal encyclopedia even though part of what makes an encyclopedia good is completeness?  What the *hell* happened to making Wikipedia a source of all human knowledge; who the **** became king and declared that they were the only ones who could rightfully know or determine what qualified as knowledge and what qualified as crap to delete from the human consciousness?  I can see deleting joke pages, or pages revolving around topics made up specifically for seeing what you could get on the Wikipedia without anyone noticing, but when pages revolving around stuff that real people worked on and that you can see for yourself if you care to look beyond the normal edges of your computer screen and hangouts are equally deigned trash to be hauled, there's something seriously broken.

But the whole thing is massive, and probably will stick around for a while.  Eventually something better designed and more sanely mantained will come along, and that will be the end of it; till then we'll just have to find smaller but nicer places to put information about this stuff.  Those who care to look will come, and those who don't probably wouldn't appreciate it anyway.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2007, 00:03 »

Now only DoomRL and Dwarf Fortress defend the current roguelike scene.

Rogue, NetHack, Angband, Omega and others do not count?
I said "current" scene :)
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2007, 01:49 »

What sort of articles have you had to back up, Zaimoni?
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Santiago Zapata

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2007, 17:38 »

Mind you, even the Roguelike article has been considered for deletion... wikipedia has lot all of its charm to me

If I want to see an encyclopedia with strictly verifiable, academic content, I'd rather visit a library... methinks the people that are actually trying to make it better do not realize this.
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zaimoni

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2007, 02:03 »

What sort of articles have you had to back up, Zaimoni?
I'm backing up anything I may need to refer to in bootstrapping my second business.  [Strictly, an LLC I'm a founding member of; ....]

In practice, this means any page with substantive content in:
* Thermodynamics
* Kinetic gas theory/statistical mechanics
** At least three useful concrete-example pages are nominated for later deletion here, apparently because they require background equivalent to a higher degree in one of mathematics, physics, or chemistry to immediately understand.  I formally have this background (Master's in mathematics).
* Chemical reaction kinetics
* Chemical equilibria

In these domains, there currently is no other equivalently competent central website.  The next best contender for chemical equilibria is IUPAC, but they don't have sketched derivations. (Which is a critical problem, as I need to understand the models well enough to rederive them correctly.  I've already found a fundamental example where the standard construction is formally wrong.)

For the other domains mentioned, there is no "next best contender".
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 10:02 by zaimoni »
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Zeb

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2007, 12:08 »

Funny that they'd delete articles like that, but leave hundreds of articles on video game characters that are of no possible use to anyone.

Oh well. I stopped really caring about Wikipedia after my main account got banned during the Encyclopedia Dramatica witchhunt. I had been on the fast track to adminship too...
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Jim9137

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2007, 10:59 »

If they want verifiable sources, link to homepages of 7DRL/*RL/etc and describe the game in "DoomRL is a rogue-like that is based upon Doom."

And that'd be about it.

Yeup. Unless they decide to be snappy and protect it from edits.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2007, 11:18 »

The problem is that all roguelikes sources are "self-published" so "not verifyable".
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Kornel Kisielewicz

yuriks

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2007, 19:29 »

Wikipedia is pathetic. I see lot's of articles being deleted every day because of 'non-notability', but the articles for each single Pokemon can stay because the admins are anime nerds. (no offense anyone =P)
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2007, 04:45 »

The more I learn the more the whole wiki model sorta breaks down for me.  It seems more how many people you have in your clique who are willing to defend an entry, how many friends this entry has on admin, how popular or contraversial it currently is (even a slightly less than current entry is more likely to let its inaccuracies slip below the radar).

I don't blame people for getting worried about the current administration's penchant for revisionism, but on a wider scope I think wikipedia itself is moving away from what it originally purported to be.  I think this was inevitable though; the more popular it was to become, the more likely it would be that people would find a way to manipulate the system.
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Santiago Zapata

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2007, 10:42 »

A funny thing, I always thought all those wikipedia-clone sites based on content stealing bots where useless and nonsense... what now? they are the only way to retrieve lost articles!

Anybody knows a serious initiative against the certain path to death wikipedia has taken?

THIS IS MADNESS!
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2007, 12:10 »

Googlepedia :P
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2007, 13:00 »

Well, i understand wikipedia in some way. They accepted any crap that was coming up from everyone. Which caused a load of wrong informations and stupid entries...they were going to a big private homepage hoster.
Now they changed this and so every article (especially new ones) must be validated, useful, informative and also have a special format. On the counter part this makes it really hard to establish new articles in wikipedia and also keep them there. 7DRL was sadly one of them.
Ok, i have to say that i know one of the main admins from wikipedia personally - i will ask him what can be done to get the article into wikipedia and also have it included there after the next "update" ;) But i can do this earliest in one or two weeks - hes not around atm (holiday).
I will keep you informed about this.

Meanwhile: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=7DRL - i think a better site to contribute as wikipedia since its more specific :)
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DisaffectedBeta

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speaking of Wikipedia
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2007, 05:55 »

An interesting article from wired:

http://www.wired.com/politics/onlinerights/news/2007/08/wiki_tracker?currentPage=all

Regarding a search engine that helps find out WHO made anonymous changes to articles, and the search engine it's talking about:

http://wikiscanner.virgil.gr/
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SaThaRiel

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Re: Seven Day Roguelike entry up for deletion in Wikipedia
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2007, 15:05 »

Ok, talked to a wiki admin (luckily one of the english version ones :) ) and he said he cant understand that it was deleted - but it was and the discussion wont end without proof of need/usability. An easy and reliable way to proof the usability of an article is when you can give references like news articles in news papers/magazines and the like.
I tried to search for them and only found those:

Some news on "roguelikes", not specific 7DRL: http://www.armchairarcade.com/neo/node/1185
The 7DRL article on roguebasin: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=7DRL
The contest on the google newsgroup: http://angband.oook.cz/rgrd.php?q=7drl&w=1&o=0
Another 7DRL unspecific site: http://www.roguetemple.com/

Sure the 7DRL games from chaosforge should be a good reference too. Maybe someone has news articles in other languages? I saw a picture from a polish computer magazine somehwere here in the forum ("screenshot"), maybe this can be used too.

So 7DRL can be put back into wikipedia, but i will need you help ;) Give some links to aritcles about 7DRL (hope you can find some).
The pokemon problem is just because there are much more ppl knowing this stuff than ppl knowing RLs and the 7DRL contest. Thats why pokemon stays while 7DRL got deleted. Also pokemons have a lot of resources in the net.
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