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Author Topic: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!  (Read 35549 times)

BDR

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2007, 13:48 »

Like in many roguelikes, zapping a dry wand many, many times results in a last charge.

I far prefer IVAN's method whereby the last charge is extracted by simply breaking the wand, and that method is useful (given the right precautions, aka all the stuff you're hauling that is likely to be destroyed is safely stored away) even if you're using an attack wand (wand of striking/fireballs), though doing so is really only something you do out of desperation, mostly.  I can't imagine trying to get the last charge from a wand of frost bolt while something is busy attacking me, and needing to use those ID wands 20 times or so before I finally get that last charge of usefulness will be annoying.

As for the prefixes: Weapon prefixes actually make a fair bit of sense to me so far.  Cold draining = kill something, and the warmth of the dead thing is drained into you; heart-seeking = increased chance of critical hits; regenerating = increased health regen while wielding; fiery = extra burn damage to frost critters, and I presume the inverse is frosty.  Potions, on the other hand.....  Speaking of which, why don't those miserly sages tell me what the pots do as well as what their names are? >:(

Er, one last question: Scrolls you find on posts in the dungeon.. they don't show up too often, but if I read one of one type, and find another of the same type, will I recognize it, or is that always going to be a gamble?
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2007, 02:34 »

Blade, I thougth the stereotype with women included liking clothes!

I think the wraith's imbalance actually makes it interesting, but I'm OK with losing it if I'm not supposed to be scumming.

I actually found a wand that helps put those sages in their place, which was nice.

There was something else I wanted to say, but I'll edit to this box if I remember.
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Glowie

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2007, 04:06 »

Like in many roguelikes, zapping a dry wand many, many times results in a last charge.

I far prefer IVAN's method whereby the last charge is extracted by simply breaking the wand, and that method is useful (given the right precautions, aka all the stuff you're hauling that is likely to be destroyed is safely stored away) even if you're using an attack wand (wand of striking/fireballs), though doing so is really only something you do out of desperation, mostly.  I can't imagine trying to get the last charge from a wand of frost bolt while something is busy attacking me, and needing to use those ID wands 20 times or so before I finally get that last charge of usefulness will be annoying.

That's not a bad alternative, but I don't think the difference is that big. Offensive wands are quite useless in both cases after they're dry, and getting the last charge from, say, identification wand isn't that annoying if you drop other wands and spam 'i' 'u'.

As for the prefixes: Weapon prefixes actually make a fair bit of sense to me so far.  Cold draining = kill something, and the warmth of the dead thing is drained into you; heart-seeking = increased chance of critical hits; regenerating = increased health regen while wielding; fiery = extra burn damage to frost critters, and I presume the inverse is frosty.  Potions, on the other hand.....  Speaking of which, why don't those miserly sages tell me what the pots do as well as what their names are? >:(

They were a lot worse in previous releases. I've tried to make them easier to understand, though there are still a few that don't make sense to everyone. At least you know the potion's effect after drinking it. Sages don't like sharing their infinite knowledge, they're very stingy. :P

Er, one last question: Scrolls you find on posts in the dungeon.. they don't show up too often, but if I read one of one type, and find another of the same type, will I recognize it, or is that always going to be a gamble?

It's always a gamble. There must always be a risk when there's a possibility of something good to happen.


I think the wraith's imbalance actually makes it interesting, but I'm OK with losing it if I'm not supposed to be scumming.

You are NOT supposed to scum. All scummers shall burn in the Roguelike Hell for all eternity in their miserable afterlife!
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Rabiat

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2007, 04:31 »

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
I think the wraith's imbalance actually makes it interesting, but I'm OK with losing it if I'm not supposed to be scumming.

Instadeaths are interesting, but also very annoying and discouraging. If they're caused by some vulnerability the player has overlooked, I think instadeaths are justified. But the dwarf that met the wraith was dressed like a leopard tank, and still got killed in a single hit.

BTW I've been playing my first Elven archer yesterday evening, and made it to DL11 with little difficulty. Ranged attacks are surprisingly effective, and staying out of melee range is not that difficult if you play carefully. Actually, I find this archer easier to play than the melee warriors I played so far; they don't suffer as much from melee effects such as poisoning, confusion and especially illness, which greatly increases survivability. After a couple of levels arrows ran out though; they're not that easy to come by in the dungeons themselves, so I've spent several 100$ on arrows from sages (forget about sacrifices, I need arrows!). There was never any real danger, not even from the &, although the Destroy Walls skill was an absolute necessity for that. It seems that archers in FD are easier than in most roguelikes. I think this is caused by the absence of strong quick-moving monsters in the earlier levels, and the fact that monsters don't block arrows. This makes it relatively safe to ignore a rat in melee and take your time shoot the hulking monstrosity behind it. :)
« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 04:33 by Rabiat »
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2007, 05:22 »

I'm teasing about scumming, although I don't think I'm immortal in real life like the rest of you, so whether or not I do it is up to me and my sense of my own mortality.  I'm not terribly worried about going to roguelike hell by the way, I have a wand of digging.

While I think such instandeaths are horrible, my point was that having enemies which are weak/strong in that sort of way helps vary the roster a bit.

My favorite monster so far is the slush monster because of its special ability.  Not sure what triggers it, though.

I don't know if anyone noticed, and you may consider this a spoiler, but when you get hit by the random-cursing ray, if your THROWN items get cursed, you can just throw them all until you run out.  When you pick up what's left, they will be uncursed.  I'm always happy when that slot turns red.  Means I dodged a bullet, of sorts!

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Rabiat

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2007, 07:22 »

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
I'm not terribly worried about going to roguelike hell by the way, I have a wand of digging.

If you use a Wand of Digging on the outer walls of Roguelike Hell, you shall walk straight into the Great Divide By Zero and endure the inescapable wrath of Segfault the Terrible.

For an unfinished roguelike project I once made up a nice protection against save-scumming. Every new player character is marked by a sequential numeric identifier, which is stored in the save file. If the character dies, the ID is stored in the final scores list. If somehow a save file is loaded which has an ID that also appears in the final scores, the game is loaded as usal, but the next level down will have a ridiculously dangerous monster spawn rate, which is always lethal. (The protection was pretty lame of course, but I still like the idea.)
« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 07:24 by Rabiat »
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Glowie

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2007, 10:20 »

As an archer I usually save arrows and thrown weapons as much as I can in the first 10 levels and use melee, after that try to use thrown weapons first and then arrows when/if needed. You'll run out of arrows sooner or later if you use them all the time.

That anti save scum method of yours is quite interesting, Rabiat, though even that can be fooled if the player copies the scores file before the ID was written there or quits the program before the new data to the scores is written. Of course he would have to know that you use the scores file for this. I like that dangerous monster spawn rate, serves them right! ;)

Oh the cursing trap can curse thrown weapons. That's not intentional, I guess I wrote that part when I was a bit sleepy. For example Sages can't uncurse thrown weapons and thrown weapons can't be cursed or blessed when you find them. But for now I won't fix that, it's not like it hurts the player.
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Rabiat

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2007, 10:42 »

Quote from: Glowie
As an archer I usually save arrows and thrown weapons as much as I can in the first 10 levels and use melee, after that try to use thrown weapons first and then arrows when/if needed. You'll run out of arrows sooner or later if you use them all the time.

I've been shooting even in melee range to get my ranged weapon skill up, but this is taking more arrows more quickly. The sages are becoming pretty expensive too, so I've sold every surplus item I found by now, including sacrificial fodder. I don't think I'll be able to keep this up for very long, so I guess I'll start training my thrown weapon skill (still at 2).

Edit: I just played the archer down to DL 21 and raised thrown weapon skill to 9. I would've been out of arrows for a long time now if I had only used archery. Picking the Create Snowballs skill was a very lucky guess (well, not so lucky for one particular &). :) I used Destroy Walls a lot, to create loops and keep out of melee range, and to create shortcuts between stairs so I could lug items back to sages. I've only met two of them (less than in previous games) and arrow pricing is ridiculous.

Quote from: Glowie
That anti save scum method of yours is quite interesting, Rabiat, though even that can be fooled if the player copies the scores file before the ID was written there or quits the program before the new data to the scores is written. Of course he would have to know that you use the scores file for this. I like that dangerous monster spawn rate, serves them right! ;)

That's why I said it was lame protection. :) It's rather hard to come up with decent protection against scumming. I just enjoyed the concept of punishing the scumming player in the game itself, and there's no roguelike I know of that actually does this. You're welcome to use the idea if you like it. My attempts at writing a complete roguelike have been postponed until 2040 anyway. ;)
« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 14:24 by Rabiat »
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Karry

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2007, 14:37 »

Quote
I just enjoyed the concept of punishing the scumming player in the game itself, and there's no roguelike I know of that actually does this.
ADoM has it.
ADoM has everything.

To be precise, ADoM punishes you for cheating, not for scumming, but sometimes when you load the save file it can bug out, and punish you anyway.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 14:39 by Karry »
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zaimoni

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2007, 16:13 »

That's why I said it was lame protection. :) It's rather hard to come up with decent protection against scumming. I just enjoyed the concept of punishing the scumming player in the game itself, and there's no roguelike I know of that actually does this. You're welcome to use the idea if you like it. My attempts at writing a complete roguelike have been postponed until 2040 anyway. ;)
Hengband made it work.

I suppose one could always splice in Jeff Lait's Save Scummer to get integrated detection.
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2007, 16:46 »

Played a bit more.  Died a lot.  One thing I like about ranged attackers is that you can just sit there and hold the shoot button until the creature dies.  When it dies, the thing instantly stops, unlike with a melee, where when you're done you go crazy-scooting into a wall.

I tried out ADOM for the first time today.  It had me wishing it was more random, like in Dwarf Fortress, but it seems good.  After being spoiled by easier interfaces in Doom and Frozen Depths, though, it's difficult for me to sift through screens, skills, and keymap screens.
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Rabiat

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2007, 01:18 »

Quote from: Karry
ADoM has it.

I know ADOM punishes the player for level scumming in some places, but to my knowledge there's no protection against save scumming. Could you explain what you mean by 'it punishes cheating'?

Quote from: Karry
ADoM has everything.

Except active development or available source code, unfortunately.

Quote from: zaimoni
Hengband made it work. (...) I suppose one could always splice in Jeff Lait's Save Scummer to get integrated detection.

You mean it has good protection against save scumming, or in-game punishment? And AFAIK Save Scummer is a proof of concept, not a functional protection/detection method. Anyway, my remark was not about the quality of protection.

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
Played a bit more.  Died a lot.  One thing I like about ranged attackers is that you can just sit there and hold the shoot button until the creature dies.

And there's no relation between holding down buttons and dying a lot? ;)

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
I tried out ADOM for the first time today.  It had me wishing it was more random, like in Dwarf Fortress, but it seems good.  After being spoiled by easier interfaces in Doom and Frozen Depths, though, it's difficult for me to sift through screens, skills, and keymap screens.

It takes a while to get the hang of ADOM, but it's very rewarding once you do. You'll have lots of randomness once you get survival down (actually the game is dangerously random in some places). On the other hand, the fixed plot elements and quests will take years to discover if you don't want to read spoilers. And since you've admitted you're not immortal in real life, you may have to spend 20 hours per day on the game for 30 months straight, or consult Andy Williams' ADOM Guidebook. ;)
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2007, 02:12 »

Well, my point was, if you hold down in melee, you go running past the creature once it drops.  In ranged it actually stops and asks you what's wrong with you for hitting shoot or target when there are no enemies onscreen.

As long as the guidebook marks spoilers I guess I can check it out.
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zaimoni

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2007, 05:32 »

Quote from: Karry
ADoM has it.

I know ADOM punishes the player for level scumming in some places, but to my knowledge there's no protection against save scumming. Could you explain what you mean by 'it punishes cheating'?
ADOM's monster power reacts to how many of a given type you've killed already, even in the normal areas.  Save-scumming tends to drive this up.

Quote from: zaimoni
Hengband made it work. (...) I suppose one could always splice in Jeff Lait's Save Scummer to get integrated detection.

You mean it has good protection against save scumming, or in-game punishment? And AFAIK Save Scummer is a proof of concept, not a functional protection/detection method. Anyway, my remark was not about the quality of protection.
In-game punishment (one room, no stairs out).  It has some backup procedure (first-tier is the *.lok file that should not be in Angband 3.0.8 when it comes out "shortly").  I haven't checked the source code, but there is enough dead space in the Angband-style save format that "when recent saves were" statistics could be stuffed in.

I know that Save Scummer is a proof-of-concept.  But, after allowing for combinatoric grouping (equivalent results downstream), it will provide a heuristic approach in conjunction with an RNG audit trail.
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Karry

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2007, 04:25 »

Quote
ADOM's monster power reacts to how many of a given type you've killed already, even in the normal areas.  Save-scumming tends to drive this up.
You're wrong, i meant a totally different thing.
Basically, if ADoM detects (or thinks) something is wrong with the savefile - it gives you some message after load, and turn every damn monster totally unbeatable. All monsters hit extremely hard, and you virtually cant hit them at all. You wont live long, thats for sure.
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