DRL > Requests For Features

Weapon/Trait Overhaul

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007bistromath:
I've hit CL6 enough times to figure out it's right around 13-15. I often have Intuition maxed and am carrying around a bunch of cool stuff, and the area is still barely survivable. Having a bit extra won't break the game, though my initial number for Hellrunner is a bit much. 15% like Potman said is better.
--- Quote from: Const on September 27, 2007, 12:23 ---Using termin "damage dice" in perks IMHO also isn't good.
--- End quote ---
What?
--- Quote ---Only 12 perks is bad - in current version, there are 18 perks.
--- End quote ---
I don't see why. That they work and interact well is much more important than having alot of them.
--- Quote ---Only 3 perks at start is bad - it decreases game replayability.
--- End quote ---
That is most certainly not true. Replayability is already barely affected by traits at all. There are only a few that it makes any sense to take at the beginning of the game, because of the power of the ones that lie at the end of the chains. This proposition will increase replayability by making specialization more intuitive and somewhat more flexible. People will be encouraged to experiment with chains they might not necessarily use for a while because of what they pick up, but it won't kill them because most of what they buy will provide some use regardless of equipment.
--- Quote ---No Brute at the beginning AoB is bad - AoB already hard at start.
--- End quote ---
A higher Hellrunner and the new TaN should make survival to CL3, when you have the choice of the Brute effect or dual wield, about as doable as getting to CL3 in AoB currently is, if not a bit moreso.
--- Quote ---About "demolition" perk - it isn't good perk. Current splash radius already big; if it increases, it means that  the player more hit himself and more destroy good items. It's VERY bad.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, hadn't considered that. A real demoman is about precision, though... What about a perk that reduces the chance of item destruction when using explosives?


--- Quote from: Ilhar on September 27, 2007, 12:36 ---IMHO, trees destroy many possibilities to "make" your marine, which is a big part of fun in DoomRL...
--- End quote ---
Okay... Why do you think it does that? That's kind of an important piece of information, here. It seems to me that well-made trees make customization easier, for one because the options available will interact better due to having some planning behind them, and allowing for unique build order that doesn't make you a complete gimp when you get the wrong stuff. Currently running down the shotgun line is suicide if you have to wait until Hell's Armory to find a doublegun, and taking EE before you find an early one means you've completely wasted two points unless you resolve to stick it out with your chaingun until you miraculously discover a plasma rifle. The new tree sets things up in a way that you can make a "mistake" without it being a total loss. You can have a decent shotty and a decent chaingun, or you can pick one and make it really awesome.

Silhar:
Ok, here's an example :

I'm going to create an auto-weapon char. In 9.8.7. I take Eagle eye (for greater hit chance in coward tactics), Son Of A Bitch (for greater damage) and Triggerhappy (for faster shooting). If I have any skill points left, then I take Ironman or Tough as Nails. That build works well (***will*** work, when SoaB gets fixed), each trait here is useful for me. On level 12 my char is fully functional.

Your trait system version :
To take Eagle Eye, I must take at least one level of Intuition (for what, I ask ? I don't wanna be a sniper, and taking only one level of Int has not much sense. It will not give any great stuff). Then I can take Eagle Eye on level 2 (few of mine chars proably will get killed because of that I'll not hit anyone. My friggin' luck. But I can say is that lever nice or bad ! Great.). Then, I'll take SoaB for greater damage. On level 6 I can take Bullet Hose (ONLY ONE level ? This gives 10 bullets to fire each turn, with Triggerhappy (3) I fire 14 with my PR). I'll then proably take another 2 levels of EE. On level 9 I can finally pump myself up with TaN... if I'll take hellrunner (1) first. Dammit, I'm a walking tank, not a ninja ! On level 10 I finally get my beloved TaN & Ironman in one (Aye, that's the idea.). My plan is finished on level 12. This char has better armor, health, lower firing speed, can sense levers and better avoid bullets.

See ? In current version you can't have everything. This makes you choose one way you'll show these bastards. And here you can be a stealthy guy, a heavy support and a sniper in one person. And it is where all that fun is lost.

As Kornel said someday, I don't say that this idea is bad. I just want to show you my way of thinking is better. :)

007bistromath:

--- Quote from: Ilhar on September 27, 2007, 14:12 ---Ok, here's an example :

I'm going to create an auto-weapon char. In 9.8.7. I take Eagle eye (for greater hit chance in coward tactics), Son Of A Bitch (for greater damage) and Triggerhappy (for faster shooting). If I have any skill points left, then I take Ironman or Tough as Nails. That build works well (***will*** work, when SoaB gets fixed), each trait here is useful for me. On level 12 my char is fully functional.

Your trait system version :
To take Eagle Eye, I must take at least one level of Intuition (for what, I ask ? I don't wanna be a sniper, and taking only one level of Int has not much sense. It will not give any great stuff).
--- End quote ---
Dude, the lever sense is important. It's honestly the main reason I get Intuition. I have had some nasty situations completely turned around by finding a health station at the right time.
--- Quote ---Then I can take Eagle Eye on level 2 (few of mine chars proably will get killed because of that I'll not hit anyone. My friggin' luck. But I can say is that lever nice or bad ! Great.)
--- End quote ---
Keyword is "few." Eagle Eye is NOT important until you get the chaingun. I almost never die before I get one unless I screw up really badly on Hell's Arena. If you can't make it to CL2 before you need a chaingun, Eagle Eye won't save you.
--- Quote ---Then, I'll take SoaB for greater damage. On level 6 I can take Bullet Hose (ONLY ONE level ? This gives 10 bullets to fire each turn, with Triggerhappy (3) I fire 14 with my PR).
--- End quote ---
Am I the only person who has noticed that Triggerhappy doesn't exist anymore? I keep seeing people mentioning that, but I've never seen it on my list no matter what I take, and it's not on the wiki anywhere at all.
--- Quote ---I'll then proably take another 2 levels of EE. On level 9 I can finally pump myself up with TaN... if I'll take hellrunner (1) first. Dammit, I'm a walking tank, not a ninja ! On level 10 I finally get my beloved TaN & Ironman in one (Aye, that's the idea.). My plan is finished on level 12. This char has better armor, health, lower firing speed, can sense levers and better avoid bullets.
--- End quote ---
He also has more damage and knockback from the new SoaB, (more damage than you would get from current SoaB if it worked, I might add) and increased sight range from the new EE. That "lower firing speed" is double the rate of a normal chaingun, and much better than you can do currently since there isn't any Triggerhappy. That's by CL3.
--- Quote ---See ? In current version you can't have everything. This makes you choose one way you'll show these bastards. And here you can be a stealthy guy, a heavy support and a sniper in one person. And it is where all that fun is lost.
--- End quote ---
Make up your mind. Is it not fun because you can "have everything" or is it not fun because it's "underpowered?" You can't claim both of these things. The only complaint you have that really stands up is that you get TaN late. Now, for one thing, the order of Hellrunner and TaN could easily be switched, it really doesn't matter which one of those is first. Hell, I'd be for making them both available at start and you just have to have one of each to open up the melee stuff. That might even be an appropriate approach for all the trees. The main problem, however, is still with your build. Why did you get TaN at level 9? Because you stopped to get the other two levels of EE first. For your build, I would actually say that the best order is to specialize late. HR->TaN->Int->EE->etc. EE would be coming a little bit late, but it's not like you need it right away when you get your chaingun, and you seriously don't need the damage from SoaB until later on. Think about it: if you did, how could this game be playable while SoaB is broken? It can't be that important.

Gloating about your way of thinking is kind of silly when you're ignoring several key facts.

Const:

--- Quote from: 007bistromath on September 26, 2007, 00:30 ---The new Hellrunner: really? The one we already have always seemed kind of underpowered to me.
--- End quote ---

Current Hellrunner is a good - only SoaB and SoaG (of course, with fixed damage) can be much better. Except Intuition - it's not a basic perk.
You underestimate HR.


--- Quote from: 007bistromath on September 27, 2007, 15:14 ---Am I the only person who has noticed that Triggerhappy doesn't exist anymore? I keep seeing people mentioning that, but I've never seen it on my list no matter what I take, and it's not on the wiki anywhere at all.
--- End quote ---

TH requires SoaB2. And TH is strong.


--- Quote from: 007bistromath on September 27, 2007, 12:43 ---
--- Quote ---Only 12 perks is bad - in current version, there are 18 perks.
--- End quote ---
I don't see why. That they work and interact well is much more important than having alot of them.
--- End quote ---

For gameplay, not very interesting, how treeperks work.
For roleplay, some links are unclear. I don't understand, why reloader requires SoaB, why Demoman requires reloader, and why TaN requres HR:
Soab - you better shot, but how does it affect ability to reload?
Demoman - how does ability to reload affect bursts?
And more perks - more fun.
About "balanse" - perfect balanse = no perks; and in games such are Diablo2 and Fallout perks are disbalanced, but that games are great because threre are many perks in them. (And other features, of course)

Hellrunner - if you play an agile marine. TaN - if you play a tough marine.
How are agility and toughness linked?


--- Quote --- There are only a few that it makes any sense to take at the beginning of the game,
--- End quote ---

You underestimate some perks. Only Reloader is not good for the beginning.


--- Quote ---  People will be encouraged to experiment with chains they might not necessarily use for a while because of what they pick up, but it won't kill them because most of what they buy will provide some use regardless of equipment.
--- End quote ---

I think that it's not good. Hell is not a place for experiments; if marine experiments, and experiment is unsuccessful, marine must die.


--- Quote ---A higher Hellrunner and the new TaN should make survival to CL3
--- End quote ---

TaN only when you reach CL2.
And hellrunner is almost useless when fighting demons. Which means hard to access CL2.


--- Quote ---What about a perk that reduces the chance of item destruction when using explosives?
--- End quote ---

Sounds better, but i don't know possibility of that.

Some of your ideas are good, but most - hard to realize, or aren't logical. For example, "Bullet Hose". Why it increases number of shots with chaingun by 5, and for PR only by 2? It does not make any sense for me.

007bistromath:

--- Quote from: Const on September 28, 2007, 13:30 ---TH requires SoaB2. And TH is strong.
--- End quote ---
...

This wiki sucks.
--- Quote ---For gameplay, not very interesting, how treeperks work.
For roleplay, some links are unclear. I don't understand, why reloader requires SoaB, why Demoman requires reloader, and why TaN requres HR:
Soab - you better shot, but how does it affect ability to reload?
Demoman - how does ability to reload affect bursts?
--- End quote ---
None of those things are affected by any of the others, and the structure is not trying to imply that they are. The reason I made the trees that way is because they focus on weapon specialization. At the bottom are the things which benefit all characters about equally, and further up are things that give more benefit to a character using the weapon type that tree is made for.
--- Quote ---And more perks - more fun.
--- End quote ---
This is entirely subjective. When there are too many things to choose from, all it does is make that choice harder. What's really the best thing to do for my play style? The only way to find out is to experiment. According to you though, I shouldn't be allowed to experiment without dying five hundred times and not having anyway to know if it was my build or my method or my luck that was the problem. The game, as you want it to be, is unplayable garbage suitable only for the most OCD and the hardest of cores. That's not fun, it's frustrating, and it makes me want to go do something else.
--- Quote ---About "balanse" - perfect balanse = no perks; and in games such are Diablo2 and Fallout perks are disbalanced, but that games are great because threre are many perks in them. (And other features, of course)
--- End quote ---
This doesn't mean that balance shouldn't even be attempted. The entire point of perks is customization. If some perks are much more powerful than others, then you can't actually customize with them, because you're gimping your character. Making most of the stuff roughly equal in power is very important if you want customization rather than flat progression.
--- Quote ---TaN only when you reach CL2.
And hellrunner is almost useless when fighting demons. Which means hard to access CL2.
--- End quote ---
In my experience, a successful (not necessarily winning, but a good run) character usually has CL2 before, or sometimes about midway through, Hell's Arena. Demons are not a problem until after that.

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