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[Const]

This wiki sucks.

It's not hard to discover all advanced perks without any wiki. You can see all prerequisites for them at the beginning, when you choose a first perk.

The reason I made the trees that way is because they focus on weapon specialization. At the bottom are the things which benefit all characters about equally, and further up are things that give more benefit to a character using the weapon type that tree is made for.

Not realistic. The marine is familiar with weapons, and he can specialize, instead of getting some all-usable skills.
For example, in AliensRL it's possible to get heavy weapon skill at the beginning, inspite of thare aren'n heavy weapons at the beginning.

When there are too many things to choose from, all it does is make that choice harder.

This choice isn't hard, in comparison with Fallout or Might&Magic.

According to you though, I shouldn't be allowed to experiment without dying five hundred times and not having anyway to know if it was my build or my method or my luck that was the problem.

Of course. Chance of dying must be much greater than chance of victory. It's the main rule of the most computer games.

 

This doesn't mean that balance shouldn't even be attempted. The entire point of perks is customization. If some perks are much more powerful than others, then you can't actually customize with them,

It's not right.
In current game, there are 4 good ways to improve character - chaingun way, pistol way, melee way and intuition way. And perks, which are not needed for that improvements, also aren't useless - the player can take them after he reach his main improvement. And it's good - I am not sure that in Fallout or Diablo more possibilities.

In your tree system, where all perks are strong, after player reach certain level, he must be too strong.
For example, in your system player with CL9 can have hellrunner*3, TaN*3 and Brute*3, which is more then Hellrunner, Brute, Berserker, TaN and Ironman (all *3) in current game! (CL 15)
And, for such character, all will be easy.
On the other side, at the beginning the game can be harder, because most of the perks will be unavailable on CL 1-2.
It means that the beginning shall be harder, and ending shall be easier. And, in current game, already later levels easier than first levels (on UV and/or some challenges. For example, in my Hall of Fame 8 victories and no death at 20-24 DL, except death in Mortuary).

Making most of the stuff roughly equal in power is very important

Making levels more equal is more important. When level 20 is easier than level 10 because of traits, it's not good.

In my experience, a successful (not necessarily winning, but a good run) character usually has CL2 before, or sometimes about midway through, Hell's Arena.

I say about Angel of Berserk, where experience is hard to obtain because no ranged weapons.

[007bistromath]

This wiki sucks.

It's not hard to discover all advanced perks without any wiki. You can see all prerequisites for them at the beginning, when you choose a first perk.

It is when the one that's not listed is behind a trait that is broken and therefore stupid to take at present. The only way I'd consider running down useless trait lines is if I were allowed to experiment without it being a complete waste of time. If you hate so much for the "real" game to have that flexibility, then there needs to be some kind of a test/exploration mode so that you can feel out how traits and weapons interact in a Sandbox where you don't have to wonder if the reason you lost was actually just bad luck or poor tactics. If you aren't given a chance to formulate a strategy in a game that has a variety of options, then the game is broken.

This choice isn't hard, in comparison with Fallout or Might&Magic.

Those games also don't punish experimentation. They have saves for one thing, and besides that a character without traits is usually competent enough that taking a bad one isn't the end of the game. In particular I find it's kind of funny that you'd mention Fallout: exploration of characters, system, and world are central to that title, it's not about finding the mathematically perfect way to finish.

It's not right.
In current game, there are 4 good ways to improve character - chaingun way, pistol way, melee way and intuition way. And perks, which are not needed for that improvements, also aren't useless - the player can take them after he reach his main improvement.

Right, so what's the problem, then? My system just gives you more ways to specialize. More specialization branches is definitely a good thing, as it allows players to be more tactically diverse. I'd have alot more fun trying out different styles of play than I would grinding down the One Right Way. Two right ways and a pair of things you only use in special challenges aren't much better at all. There need to be more viable strategies that fit with different tactical styles.

And it's good - I am not sure that in Fallout or Diablo more possibilities.

I don't remember enough about Fallout to say, but in Diablo there are so many ways to do things that work. That's really half the point of the game, just screwing around with your build. It's about creative optimization, and it's fun, and it's what's missing from DoomRL's current trait system.

Most of the rest of what you said is stuff I've already responded to. If starting under this system is hard, then make the first two levels of each tree open at start rather than just the first one. If finishing is too easy, beef up the monsters. Also consider that sometimes it should get a bit easier later on, otherwise why are you picking up all these fancy weapons and taking these traits in the first place? They're not there to do nothing. It's your reward for solid build strategy and tactical prowess.

I say about Angel of Berserk, where experience is hard to obtain because no ranged weapons.

Finally, again, if not having TaN is that much of a problem, then just switch their order, or open up both of them. It is totally not a big deal.

[Potman]

I don't remember enough about Fallout to say, but in Diablo there are so many ways to do things that work. That's really half the point of the game, just screwing around with your build. It's about creative optimization, and it's fun, and it's what's missing from DoomRL's current trait system.

Your system really isn't too related to Diablo's. In Diablo, there are seven character classes, each of them having three different trees, and of those trees, there're still plenty to choose, and loads of different builds for each character. In your suggestion, we have three abysmally small trees, from which you'll be pretty much forced to take everything or nearly everything. Your idea of experimenting doesn't work, unless we add a humongous amount of new abilities.

[007bistromath]

Well, I'm not trying to make a system exactly like Diablo's. I only even talked about it because he brought it up. Basically what I'm trying to do is bring some focus of concept to the trait system. In the current system, there are only a few ways in which trait chains correspond well to loadout and play style, and even fewer which are actually viable. In my suggestion, all traits are somehow pointed towards the goal of enhancing one's preferred kit. The system could certainly be deeper than this model, however I was actually somewhat hesitant to take it any further, as DoomRL strikes me as a very light, casual game; a richer progression system seems rather out of scope.

If the community decides something with more granularity would be beneficial, there are two things I would suggest. Firstly, adding another layer of specialization, which focuses on specific weapons within the classes, e.g., separate feats for the chaingun and plasma rifle. Alternately, or perhaps in addition to that, would be breaking up some of the compound traits I've created, such as Gun Kata, into many different options which provide those individual effects, and giving the player a few more points to spend throughout the course of a game so that specialization goals can be pursued to their end if the player wishes.