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Author Topic: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One  (Read 10530 times)

007bistromath

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A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« on: September 26, 2007, 21:55 »

Instead of damage being random, make it affected by how well you score on your to-hit roll. This way Eagle Eye can do something for shotguns without screwing around with the numbers directly. A really awful "miss," for a shotgun, would deal minimum damage regardless of distance, while a really solid hit will deal the max even if you're far away.

PS: I don't think this should be just for shotguns, either. It seems basically appropriate for any of the non-explosive weapons. Higher roll = better hit. If done correctly, this should leave the average damage of a chaingun or plasma rifle basically unchanged: there may be a very small bias towards higher damage, but the biggest factor is still that some shots which wouldn't hit now do. Those will generally be at the lower end of the range, so it balances out.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 22:12 by 007bistromath »
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Potman

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2007, 23:40 »

Although this makes compelete sense, I've never heard any RPG or other game whatsoever to make use of this concept. Let's bring out Critical Hits instead, that'd be simpler.
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007bistromath

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2007, 23:53 »

So, blaze the trail, I say. This is basically the logical extension of a crit system anyway. Having a level at which your damage increases dramatically is, I think, an amount of inconsistency which is rather uncharacteristic of the cinematic-style "big cone of hurt" shotgun.
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DaEezT

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2007, 23:54 »

Well, that's how Shadowrun does it and that's pretty much what I proposed for AliensRL because I personally never liked damage dice :p
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007bistromath

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2007, 23:58 »

I actually do like damage dice. Enough, in fact, that I would still want the damage ranges represented as xdy even though that's no longer the operating mechanic. It just feels fun somehow, even if there are some systems (case in point!) where it isn't appropriate. I just think that this particular game, as a result of the way shotguns work and how that affects trait choice, would benefit from this alternate damage model.
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DaEezT

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2007, 00:11 »

Every game with damage dice would benefit from a different model :p
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007bistromath

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2007, 00:16 »

Disagree! Even if it is, in most cases, the more logical way to do things, in a system which is purposefully more game than sim, it can be fun. In systems where attack effects are generally homogenous, as is usually the case, it is also often just more expedient. The problem is that it breaks down when you get something like what we have here, with weapons that use fundamentally different mechanics, a rather unusual thing for a roguelike.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2007, 01:54 »

Well, that's how Shadowrun does it and that's pretty much what I proposed for AliensRL because I personally never liked damage dice :p
Well, AliensRL DOES use this system -- all damage for weapons is flat, modified by the toHit roll.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

007bistromath

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2007, 02:08 »

Yeah, I could tell it was, based on how a full spray from the MP5 can sometimes leave a juvenile dark green if you don't wait for them to get right up in your face. I think you may have overdone it a tiny bit in Aliens, actually. @_@

PS: Though I have to admit, for all my frustration with that game, its idiosyncrasies really do make it feel like Aliens. (Or I think it does, anyway. I haven't watched most of those since I was too young to remember.) You have a real knack for flavorful design, and alot of my whining is just trying to find a balance between that flavor and general playability. I mean, there's nothing more unDoomish than getting bored and leaving because you've started numbering your AoB attempts. :p
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 02:13 by 007bistromath »
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2007, 02:29 »

AoB isn't supposed to be easy, y'know :P. You're going up against the forces of hell without guns -- that'd I call suicide ^_^
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Kornel Kisielewicz

007bistromath

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2007, 02:42 »

Right, I got that, just... I think there should be a little bit more of a happy medium. There's "not supposed to be easy," and then there's "quit 30 times in a row to get more than two medpacks and then die before the Chained Court anyway because you walked* into five Lost Souls on level four."

*Or spawned for that matter. Happened to me twice tonight! ;_;
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 02:46 by 007bistromath »
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ul

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2007, 02:49 »

actually, the influence from to-hit throw to damage is quite known in different rpg systems.

and there are two ways to do it. (at least to my knowledge)
first, there's simple additional damage from extra good to-hit rolls.
i'm not familiar with shadowrun, but i know a nice implementation of such rule from fading suns system.

second, some systems actually use hit locations and attack roll determines where the damage goes.
and if you recieve a good shot to the head,
you are done. even if the same shot to the leg would have just made you unable to run and walk fast.
somewhat less know, but very detailed free rpg system called quest used that kind of mechanics.

personally, while i like damage location and detail, the first option would be so much simpler to implement
and smoother to run. for me, gaining something from an extra good attack would be a matter of fairness.

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007bistromath

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2007, 03:08 »

Hit location systems are annoyingly complex, a bitch to code, and somewhat off-flavor I think. What I am suggesting is basically your first suggestion, except that I don't want extra damage. That would be crits, and I don't think we need crits here. I'll explain this with a simplified model, since I don't know the ins and outs of DoomRL's specific system.

Let's say that to determine whether you hit something or not, you roll a d20, and hit on 11 or better. If your weapon does 1-10 damage, then rolling an 11 always does one, rolling 12 always does two, and so on, until a perfect hit scores max damage. With a trait increasing your chance to hit, you basically bring up the floor. At +4, 7 or better counts as a hit, and you score max damage on 16 or higher.

Note that distance still affects shotguns in basically the same way it does now, since there is a distance penalty on to-hit rolls. It might be slightly less extreme unless damage for weak hits were scaled down quite sharply, though.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 03:11 by 007bistromath »
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Blade

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2007, 07:49 »

I like damage dice and i don't like damage affected by to-hit.)) If you are shooting imp from 2 meters with a double shotgun, he's(or she's) gonna be pretty dead, and it doesn't matter, have you Eagle Eye, or are you almost blind, damage should be the same because you hit him(or her) with same amount of lead. You could miss on that distance only if you are very unlucky(critical miss. I like criticals)), then he will recieve only few damage, or even absolutely nothing. But shotgun should be more useful, it's too weak now. I think that we just need to increase it's damage on zero distance and to have greater reduction of it per every square from you, so shotgun will be VERY dangerous in close-combat, but weak on distance.
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007bistromath

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2007, 12:36 »

1: You don't understand physics. If you're talking about a real shotgun, then sure, you're getting hit by the same amount of lead. And in fact, that's true if you're several dozen yards away, or else you wouldn't be able to use a shotgun to hunt birds. They fly in the air, you know. We're not talking about a real one though, we're talking about a movie shotgun that has a frikkin' 120 degree spread. You'd better believe that thing is going to have some variance in how much you take.

2: Shotguns are not weak. If you make them anymore powerful, the double shotgun will basically be a BFG with a hundred shots worth of ammo.

3: Shotguns are already weak enough at distance that it can be a tough choice between them and chainguns. Make their damage scale anymore, and you'll have to carry both around. I don't know about you, but there's not enough room in my backpack for that.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2007, 15:21 »

1: A bird doesn't have much HP's y'know. Also, if we're talking 'bout real shotties here, bear in mind the difference between scatter shells and solid slugs.

2,3: If you beat the game with a knife, or on Nightmare! THEN I'll believe you have the right to judge better than Blade on wether something is weak or not :P.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

007bistromath

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2007, 15:34 »

1: A bird doesn't have much HP's y'know. Also, if we're talking 'bout real shotties here, bear in mind the difference between scatter shells and solid slugs.
I'm talking about scatter shells, dude. You don't hunt birds with slugs, I'm pretty sure those are mainly for target shooting and big game. The "scatter" is not really that wide. The numbers I get from Wikipedia are 2-1/2 feet wide at 63 feet away.
Quote
2,3: If you beat the game with a knife, or on Nightmare! THEN I'll believe you have the right to judge better than Blade on wether something is weak or not :P.
My assessment was before Triggerhappy, which I never found because I stopped taking SoaB when I found out it was broken. If I had known it was there, (thought it had been removed, since it's not in the wiki) I probably would've won by now. @_@
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Blade

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2007, 16:52 »

2: Shotguns are not weak. If you make them anymore powerful, the double shotgun will basically be a BFG with a hundred shots worth of ammo.

If they are not weak then why there are so few shotgun YAVPs? Why everybody are using chainguns, when they say that they liked shotguns in original DooM more?

3: Shotguns are already weak enough at distance that it can be a tough choice between them and chainguns. Make their damage scale anymore, and you'll have to carry both around. I don't know about you, but there's not enough room in my backpack for that.

I'm inclining to original DooM concept: shotty there fires some king of solid slugs(it have scattering, but not so bad, so it hits pretty well on long distances), and deals approximately same damage on both short and long distances, while double shotty fires lead, so it's only useful on short distance, but it deals REALLY great damage. And they both are using the same ammo. Combat shotty could be as it is now, anyway after appearence of Shottyman it don't have any advantages(except 4 more shells that you could carry in it)). As the result shotgun player should carry both shotty and double shotty, first to deal on long distance, and second to turn around corners.))
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007bistromath

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2007, 16:55 »

Yeah, yeah, I get the point, I already said the reason I thought the double shotty won is because I couldn't find TH. Hush. :p
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Potman

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2007, 05:40 »

I think it's shotgun that should stay as it is, while combat shotgun should get way less spread. It is pretty much a combat shotgun in the original Doom, after all. Double shotgun should get more pellets, and maybe some more damage as well.

Also I reckon combat double shotgun would be nice, although a tad overpowered.
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007bistromath

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2007, 14:02 »

I don't think there's really anything about the current shotgun mechanics that represents "pellets." They all seem to do their damage uniformly throughout a cone-shaped area.

"Combat double shotgun" doesn't exist, doubles are always break-open action as far as I know. Even if it did, there's no real reason it's any better than the regular one since, if you're going to bother with one of those at all, you'll probably have Shottyman.
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Potman

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2007, 01:35 »

if you're going to bother with one of those at all, you'll probably have Shottyman.

And you yourself said shotguns weren't underpowered?
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007bistromath

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2007, 04:17 »

Without considering Triggerhappy, it isn't the damage that's the problem. The damage is great. It's the reloading. Shottyman removes that problem.
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Potman

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2007, 04:47 »

But it doesn't remove the problem of getting close, which can be difficult when you're being fired by three Arachnotrons or whatnot. Shotgun doesn't do squat from afar.
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007bistromath

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Re: A Much Simpler Request Than the Last One
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2007, 12:21 »

I never really had a problem with that. Something which was big enough that the shotgun wouldn't help from the distance I was at usually gets a rocket in the face anyway.
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