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Author Topic: Shotgun Overhaul  (Read 17413 times)

Silhar

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2007, 13:47 »

Look. How can it be a "triple-barreled shotgun" (I want one of those !), when it's still loaded with two shells ? :)

Potman

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2007, 13:51 »

9d3x2 would be nice. 8d3 sounds kinda too little. It's supposed to have a ton of firepower, after all.
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Silhar

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2007, 13:53 »

And a regular shotgun is dealing 6d3. Where are those three (or two) dices ?

007bistromath

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2007, 15:21 »

9d3x2 would be nice. 8d3 sounds kinda too little. It's supposed to have a ton of firepower, after all.
Hmm... Since the damage is scaling so sharply with distance, I guess that's reasonable.

And yeah, I know it's not triple-barreled. That's why making it x3 is weird.

As for the regular shotgun, it hasn't really been established what type of weapon it is. Also sawed-off? Don't know. Either way, I think we should get rid of it, honestly. It's just junk compared to the other two, and it doesn't even make sense for it to be there. A single-barreled, break-open shotgun barely qualifies as decent hunting equipment, let alone something you'd find in a military base.
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Potman

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2007, 00:15 »

The regular shotgun is probably a sawed-off. Combat shotgun is one of those pump-action thingies we all saw in the original Doom. Double shotgun is a two-(not three-)barreled sawed-off.

Also we can't get rid of the regular. Y'know why? Because then we'd have to arm all those former sergeants with combat shotguns. And that will probably make the game just a tad too difficult to handle.
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007bistromath

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2007, 00:46 »

You could always just have them reload instead of pump every time. Then it wouldn't be any different at all.
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Potman

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2007, 01:44 »

It'd require a lot more workout than it's worth, because the enemies use all the weapons the same way the player uses them. You'd have to reprogram the entire enemy AI or something.

Besides, you're only remembering the least of all problems that'd cause. You're compeletely forgetting the new reduced spread, that'd be quaranteed to keep you low health all the time: That guy in the end of the first floor will probably force you to use all or at least most of those four med-packs in the beginning. Not to mention that finding the combat shotgun would be too easy then as well: Right now their spawn is pretty much right. Remove the shotguns and they become too common for their power.
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007bistromath

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2007, 02:09 »

If Kornel really managed to program them such that they "use them the same way the player does," then he's some kind of godlike AI programmer and should be a professor at MIT. Somehow I really doubt it would be all that difficult to tell an enemy holding a shotgun to reload after each shot.

The new spread could make things kind of difficult yes, but remember that you'd have one, too, right out of the first level. It wasn't a problem in the original DOOM that all the sergeants had shotguns the same as yours, so it shouldn't be a problem here. If it is, they need a tweak anyway.

Finally, I don't think it really matters how common they are, since the only breakpoint it factors into at all is whether or not you're going to pass Hell's Arena. If you somehow still don't have one by the time you're done with it, you don't care, because you have a chaingun. I just don't think that making the first two-three levels of the game less of a meat grinder would throw off the overall balance much. If anything, it would be somewhat improved, since making combat shotguns a guaranteed drop opens up more build choices in the early game: trying to go straight to Shottyman isn't a big diceroll anymore, so deciding between it and the chaingun path is more a matter of personal choice, rather than going Int or TH with a chaingun just being The Right Way.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 02:15 by 007bistromath »
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Potman

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2007, 02:18 »

It's not that difficult. It just goes "Fire, fire, reload". Now, I think it's fairly difficult to tell them to reload after each shot while using combat shotguns, without making them to reload after each shot while using things like chainguns or plasma rifle. Why'd they even reload after each shot if they could just pump you full of shells instead? It goes against the common sense of demonic zombified creatures, I'd imagine.

We'd have one right out of the first level, yes, but the power difference is still against you. Remember that there're loads of former sergeants out there, who have the same small spread you do. It's one against million, like it's supposed to be in Doom. And what if you don't plan to use shotgun at all? If you wish to use chaingun or something else, the game's suddenly become way too difficult for you.

In the original game, the player could take much more damage compared to the enemies, and the sergeants didn't use shotgun in its full power, unless maybe if you played on more higher difficulty levels. It didn't do much damage to you, but you could still rip things with the same weapon. If you wanted sergeants to wield combat shotguns like in the original, you'd also have to make it do less damage in their hands, which is once again much too difficult for its worth.

You make a good point with Hell's Arena, but remember that the former sergeants don't just suddenly become extinct after that. They're still out there, ripping your armor and hit points apart with their much too powerful combat shotguns.

Here's a compromise, though: Let's make it possible for them to pick up a combat shotgun and use it instead.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 02:21 by Potman »
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BDR

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2007, 02:37 »

007: What Potman is basically saying is the enemy reloads when empty (which incidentally means it's doing the equivalent of 'r') and fires when it has the means and opportunity (i.e. you're in sight and the gun's loaded).  He's *not* saying that the enemy mimics player activity precisely.  The complication being noted is that either enemies are going to have to learn to act differently with different weapons (here, learning to press 'R' [to reload a shell instead of pump a new one in with the combat shotgun] instead of just 'r') or that different enemies are going to have to use different attack coding when it comes to guns.  Basically, enemies all use guns the same way right now.

I think that while the lowly shotgun doesn't have a lot going for it, it still has it's uses.  What other weapon could save you from a roomful of souls right where you spawned on level 2?  As for the "why's it on a military base?" reason, I think realism went out the window when the soldiers went crazy and demons showed up. :)

EDIT: Enemies being able to switch to better weapons sounds good to me.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 02:40 by BDR »
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2007, 05:27 »

EDIT: Enemies being able to switch to better weapons sounds good to me.
When I coded in free weapon switching I got fried with a puny former human with a RL, and in another game even a BFG. Bad idea.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2007, 06:09 »

EDIT: Enemies being able to switch to better weapons sounds good to me.
When I coded in free weapon switching I got fried with a puny former human with a RL, and in another game even a BFG. Bad idea.

Awww, that sounds like fun.
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"Morality is merely a convention with which men mutually agree to delude themselves. There are no moral facts, just preferences, and one is no better than any other."

Potman

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2007, 06:26 »

I think I'd like that anyway, but then again, I've played Nethack for six years and got used to weak monsters carrying Wand of Death.

Edit: Besides, a former human with a BFG sounds a lot less deadly than, say, Baron of Hell with a BFG.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 06:57 by Potman »
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BDR

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2007, 12:37 »

By the time rocket launchers and BFGs show up, it shouldn't be *that* difficult to take out things like former humans within one or two rounds (especially now that lower difficulties have been given the experience boost making it possible to hit clvl 7 by level 11 on ITYTD).  Granted, a baron with a BFG would probably be tough even for a god like Blade (and impossible for us mere mortals).  Perhaps this weapon switching should be restricted to the former foos?  I somewhat recall at least the hell knights being notably not-so-smart in the original Doom, and this intelligence would grant former foos a measure of respect they'd not normally get in later levels.
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Potman

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2007, 12:52 »

But what about an Excited Room (or whatever) on level 2 with a rocket launcher and former humans? That's happened to me at least once.
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