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Author Topic: Shotgun Overhaul  (Read 17455 times)

BDR

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2007, 13:12 »

Well, then the question is "Do you feel lucky?" :P

If it's a room that you can choose to enter (or not, since you found the exit already) I don't see the problem; it's a risk you can learn about (listen for the monsters) and decide to take or not.  If it's the only place you can go to find the exit to a level (and get asploded on the way), then I'm willing to chalk it up to bad, bad luck.

What, you don't like that?  If something like this doesn't garner much sympathy (which is a nearly definite death sentence unlike the former human + rocket launcher who can be baited to appear at least close enough to you to blow himself apart if you know he's coming), I don't see why this should.
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007bistromath

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2007, 16:29 »

Here's a compromise, though: Let's make it possible for them to pick up a combat shotgun and use it instead.
That's... not a compromise. I don't want to do this because I want sergeants to all have combat shotguns. I want to do it because I want the plain shotguns to go away because they are dumb.

As for the "why's it on a military base?" reason, I think realism went out the window when the soldiers went crazy and demons showed up. :)
What, you're suggesting the demons brought the shotguns with them? I guess that makes some kind of sense, I mean with it being Hell and all. Using one of those when you could have something better is fairly effective torture, I suppose.

As for the people saying "yeah, whatever" to getting blown up with rocket launchers and BFGs, the thing I don't think you guys are accounting for is the fact that you don't have to just survive that encounter, which is already hard enough. You have to be okay enough afterwards to keep slogging through all the Barons and Arachnotrons and crap like usual. The game in its present form is basically a war of attrition. Giving the enemy more ways to do HUEG DAMAJ means it's completely impossible without every single character period taking full TaN and Ironman.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 16:37 by 007bistromath »
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BDR

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2007, 18:59 »

007: My feel on a former human with a rocket launcher is that first, the AI is easy to exploit, and so *if* I know this is a possibility I will know also to be careful with lures instead of jumping into rooms and blasting away; second, IME the chance of finding a rocket launcher on level 2 is just as good as the chance of finding rockets on level 2, which is not high on the lower difficulty levels and there's an even lower chance of finding both launcher and extra rockets (meaning that, in the majority of cases where this happens either the rockets are useless or there is only *one* rocket and after that the former foo has to go back to their pitiful weapon); third, when you reach, oh, let's say level 10, yeah there will regularly be rocket launchers and rockets, but by then you will almost certainly have gotten ahold of something that makes the former foos cannon fodder (chaingun or rocket launcher should do the trick, and neither are hard to get by then).  So, no, it's not likely to be a problem, because when you're too young to handle several rockets in the face, you're very unlikely to get hit with them anyway, and by the time you get several rockets from the likes of Cacos, Barons, and Mancubi anyway, former foos are *very* easy to kill if you keep your eyes peeled for trouble.  I would seriously recommend donating and trying out the experience boost given for the lower difficulties in the new beta; I had clvl 7 by level 11 and things were going nicely on my Son of a Bitch boosted, chaingun toting marine (only reason I died was from my frustrating "Nah, I just need to plug it one more time and everything will be fine" logic which always fails at the wrong time, and that's just a bad habit, not anything critical in terms of strategy).
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007bistromath

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2007, 22:43 »

I oppose that on the basis that AI exploitation is a boring way to play. :|
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Potman

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2007, 00:42 »

I want to do it because I want the plain shotguns to go away because they are dumb.

Plain shotgun no dumb. First of all, as I just explained to you, it prevents former sergeants from becoming too much pwnage, as well as preventing the combat shotgun spawn becoming too big. Secondly, it still has one use at least: Right now, as the combat shotgun's spread has been reduced, the plain ol' shotgun is the only available early level mob weapon, being still able to beat down several enemies at once - even if it's not very effective on that area either.

And I just, I dunno, don't like the idea of finding the combat shotgun right off the bat on the first level. I'd much rather be stuck with this "dumb" shotgun for a while, trying to find my way around on an unknown area, until I find the combat shotgun on the second level and go "Yay a combat shotgun!". Sometimes I'dn't find it, and I'd have to survive with a lowly regular shotgun, until I eventually find one. Don't ask why I want it that way, because I can't explain it. I guess it's about the game balance, and keeping the weapon that's going to be awesome of not detoriating to plain cool.

Seriously, giving all former sergeants combat shotguns is like making a quaranteed plasma rifle appear on level 2. Not because of the effectiveness, and that it breaks the game balance, but because it makes an awesome weapon look plain and everyday-like. I'm against it.
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007bistromath

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2007, 01:14 »

But the combat shotgun is only "awesome" because of the risk you described. It's wholly artificial. If you want that risk to remain, then the shotgun should be replaced with something else that is also weak but which makes more sense, or at the very least make shotguns themselves not merely a completely gimped version of another weapon. This screwed up inconvenience to the player just seems like a fundamentally sloppy fix to the "problems" caused by giving sergeants the weapon they're truly supposed to have.
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BDR

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2007, 01:22 »

There is a solution to the issue that's not being described at all here: Son of a Shotgun.

AKA a trait to make shotguns worth using; who would want to use a pistol without Son of a Gun to strengthen it?
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007bistromath

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2007, 03:27 »

Well, if shotgun is going to have wider spread than combat shotgun now, then I suppose Shottyman already kind of does, until you can find a double. SoaB, when it works, will also be good for this. Either way though, I think it might be nice if Reloader were a bit stronger.
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Potman

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2007, 05:50 »

We could also add a second level on Shottyman, that'd allow you to fire right after reloading, without wasting any more turn. Then you could either move-reload or reload-fire, but not both.
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007bistromath

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2007, 07:02 »

I'm pretty sure that would send the DPS through the roof. Not wise.
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BDR

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2007, 12:29 »

Son of a Bitch does make shotguns considerably stronger; I found it quite useful for a game I played last night (though lost due to not pulling out the BFG I had fast enough).

As for Reloader being stronger, I have to disagree.  It's already possible to make an advanced weapon reload in a single turn; all you need are three reload mods and three levels of reloader.  Normal weapons can be made to do this as well with two levels of Whizkid (though by the time you get that you'll probably already have found a better shotgun).
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 12:31 by BDR »
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007bistromath

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2007, 15:16 »

I don't believe that traits should be balanced for what you can do with rare items. Yeah, you can stack stuff up pretty high, but my thinking is that if you want to spend that much on one thing, you earned it. Traits need to give make things good and playable for what you know people are going to have.
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ultimate26

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2008, 16:24 »

why not make all shotguns have shottyman ability from the beginning?? it will be more doomish, and it would make them more usefull than before, and i dont think it will unbalance the game since its allready penalized for the range.
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Dawgas

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2008, 12:55 »

That's too good of an idea - it'll never be put in
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Star Weaver

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Re: Shotgun Overhaul
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2008, 14:55 »

I think you mean 'powerful', not 'good'. It's also rather drastic, as it removes one talent, makes another meaningless for a class of items, makes one extremely common item much better, makes two existing items nearly identical, and probably requires rebalancing the whole system.
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