Other Roguelikes > AliensRL

Hello (and suggestions)

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Daqin:

--- Quote from: Newts Revenge on March 30, 2008, 08:30 ---
--- Quote from: Daqin on March 30, 2008, 01:12 ---There is nothing to chill. I said what I said. Deal with that, not with my supposed emotions. Whatever emotions may be, I use reason anyway.

--- End quote ---

Fine. I also said what I said. You assert that it is a problem with my way of thinking if I read meaning into your words which you didn't mean to put there. That is a ridiculous assertion, because how am I supposed to know what you are thinking, except through your words? But I'm happy to let that stand. By the same reasoning, it is also a problem with your way of thinking if you misinterpret what I say. You deal with it. One attempt to explain myself more clearly to you is all you get.
--- End quote ---

I said deal with it, not with me.


--- Quote from: Vestin on March 30, 2008, 09:37 ---
--- Quote from: Daqin on March 30, 2008, 01:12 ---There is no difference in words to me. The only difference is in meaning behind. I didn't think you attempted to ridiculous anything. I simply pointed out your way of thinking.
--- End quote ---
Your psychic abilities amuse me ;)...
--- End quote ---

Very well.


--- Quote from: Vestin ---Or they would - if you didn't contradict yourself so evidently. You understand that words have different meanings,
--- End quote ---

I didn't say words have different meaning. I spoke about meaning behind them. What you mean you can say by many words. You can use same words when you mean something else.


--- Quote from: Vestin --- yet are somehow certain that your interpretation is the correct one... even if the author says that it isn't.
--- End quote ---

I know what I mean when I speak.


--- Quote from: Vestin ---Either show a little bit more humility or lighten up. Having your head so far up your own ass doesn't ease the conversation.
--- End quote ---

If you don't know what others mean when speak to you, you may interpret it like you wish. If you can however, you would react to what you see without concern of how for up your ass others see your head.


--- Quote from: Vestin ---
--- Quote from: Daqin ---You can't ridicule me. This always will be your point of view.
--- End quote ---
I know I'm gonna be mean but... hell - I already am ;P.
If you really think that talking about emotions has no point - WTF was that supposed to mean ? Besides - who cares about having you ridiculed or not ? You just show a bit o insecurity by mentioning it, that's all you've gained.
--- End quote ---

Did I say it has no point? I said it can't affect me. Because it can't. What is inside your head has nothing to do with me, whatever picture it may be. It is just that, just there. I, however, may have something to do with that picture.


--- Quote from: Vestin ---
--- Quote from: Daqin ---
--- Quote ---(...) To me, the point of a Roguelike is (...)
--- End quote ---
Yes, to You. Are there any restrictions on roguelikes ? If someone makes some, it doesn't concern anyone.
--- End quote ---
He says: "IMO". You say: "I don't care about your opinion". Why the hell would anyone care about what YOU think if you have absolutely no respect for others ?
--- End quote ---

I am interested in your opinion. I am. I am not interested in restrictions you put on me. I respect your point of view. I don't care about the view you want to put in me.
I have my point of view, and I don't care if someone has the same. It has nothing to do with me and doesn't concern me. If someone is interested in my point of view, I like to share it, just like I am interested in yours, if you wish to share it. I don't force my view on anyone, and don't accept someone's forcing on me.


--- Quote from: Vestin ---As for the whole point - there are things that people ussually assume when we say "roguelike". You may have an idea for a game that incorporates some elements of the genre but doesn't include some other (also considered "core elements") - fine. Just don't insist on calling it a standart roguelike on one hand... and DON'T tell us that you understand the term better then anyone else... or that there is nothing in common when people say "roguelike" because they somehow manage to understand what that means... excluding you, I guess.
--- End quote ---

As for me, roguelikes are ASCII. You may connect it with whatever else. I don't care about standard or whatever mark it may have. I am interested in content, not the box. I don't understand them better than anyone else because I don't know what you mean by that. What is to understand ? I can only have experience of a game, that's it. I didn't say they have nothing in common. This is however may be different for every individual. You know better what is special for you about these games, no one will tell you that.


--- Quote from: Vestin ---
--- Quote from: Daqin ---
--- Quote ---Up to the point where you talked about lighting up an area with gunfire, the system you were describing seemed to be intended as a purely cosmetic enhancement that would only make tiles lighter or darker. Certainly the mockup you drew shows such a system. It would be quite different to talk about changing the visibility of tiles according to the light on them, which is not purely cosmetic, and entirely within the "spirit of the roguelike" as I see it.
--- End quote ---

Whatever. (...)
--- End quote ---
OMG... A single-worded summary of how much you care... I'm speachless.

--- End quote ---
Why you demand from me to care? Do I tell you to do that ? And I mean exactly that: Whatever.., these words may sum up, evaluate or categorize whatever I did, but it is just like 'whatever' for the need for these things.


--- Quote from: Vestin ---
--- Quote from: Daqin ---
--- Quote ---(...)it would be much less effort than a set of proper artwork.
--- End quote ---

Again, if you want things without effort it is no problem to me.
--- End quote ---
Missing the whole point...
--- End quote ---

I didn't. I did not reply to particular words but to whole in general, which obviously displayed interest in what way and with what priority the game should be done.


--- Quote from: Vestin ---AGAIN. Roguelikes with graphics are like a Resident Evil with aliens instead of zombies. That is: if you want something different... look elsewhere. I dunno - play Thief, Oblivion or Incubation. There are a lot of games with graphics.
Seriously - programming all the stuff you've described seems pointless - it's far easier to do all of this in a graphical environment, where there are no needs to find makeshift solutions to obvious limitations.

--- End quote ---
if you don't like you don't have to play it, or even discuss it. I would play it. Whoever wants would play it. If there are those who would, why to say it is pointless? If you are not interested just skip it, why you want to break it?

Rabiat:
Daqin, I must say I respect your efforts to come up with original ideas and your attempts to put them to words. I for one can empathise.

That being said, you practice Borg logic with a painful inability to distinguish honesty from sarcasm, and bear striking resemblance to a barrel in DoomRL; nobody intentionally hits you, but you're just sitting there waiting for an excuse to explode - with a four tile blast radius. Please, accept the language barrier, and deal with the Asperger's. You either are unaware of, or seriously underestimate, the amount of thought others have gone through before you when it comes to roguelike development.

Kornel Kisielewicz:
Chill out, all of you :).

I really appreciate the technical part of this discussion, but the flame one is getting funny :P

Daqin:

--- Quote from: Rabiat on March 30, 2008, 15:43 ---Daqin, I must say I respect your efforts to come up with original ideas and your attempts to put them to words. I for one can empathise.

That being said, you practice Borg logic with a painful inability to distinguish honesty from sarcasm, and bear striking resemblance to a barrel in DoomRL; nobody intentionally hits you, but you're just sitting there waiting for an excuse to explode - with a four tile blast radius. Please, accept the language barrier, and deal with the Asperger's. You either are unaware of, or seriously underestimate, the amount of thought others have gone through before you when it comes to roguelike development.


--- End quote ---

Thanks for respect. However I do not put effort in these. I do not wish to come up with idea. I simply say it when it comes to my mind and I like to translate it to into words to share and to see how would it work.

I do not practice that logic you mentioned, I don't know it, so maybe it may look for you this way. My inability or ability you presume on yours already judgments which you believe are correct, what naturally means I am mistaken, because views are different. That is weird that you think I sit and wait for someone to hit me if I start subject with neutral idea and do not intent to get hit by anything. If you actually pay attention to details you can discover some things. All you can notice from some people is attempt to grant you or deny your own right for your own games/ideas. That is strange because how can someone control or get credit for something that didn't come from him and what you already have? And what is purpose of that?
Anyway, if something said here by anyone can be considered 'flaming' I am not responsible for their actions.

EDIT:

--- Quote from: Rabiat on March 30, 2008, 15:43 --- ..with a painful inability to distinguish honesty from sarcasm,

--- End quote ---
I know what you mean by honesty and sarcasm. I however have different view on what these actually are.


--- Quote from: Rabiat on March 30, 2008, 15:43 ---nobody intentionally hits you, but you're just sitting there waiting for an excuse to explode

--- End quote ---
I know now, that I do some mistake, but that is not that. And I seem to repeat that mistake because I haven't found the alternative yet. However your insight already pointed me direction, and I am very thankful for that (Daqin bows gracefully).


--- Quote from: Rabiat on March 30, 2008, 15:43 ---Please, accept the language barrier,

--- End quote ---
It is not really barrier. However I did other mistake at some point. While being aware of what I am dealing with I skipped the content (without paying attention) going straight into expected outcome, which, in this way, I actually created/let it come. So, by seeing intended outcome I went straight there as if there was no other possibility, missing that I can direct it into different result/path. (that's how I can explain that)

Newts Revenge:

--- Quote from: Daqin on March 30, 2008, 12:29 ---I said deal with it, not with me.

--- End quote ---

As you wish:


--- Quote from: Daqin on March 30, 2008, 12:29 ---I didn't use 3d term: lighting system, but rather called it light-system which describes what I ment. (...) Maybe, actually, ridiculous was your thought assuming that it was in attempt of imitation something from 'bigger screen', because name matches..

--- End quote ---

No, I don't think so, because that's what you described. Areas lighting up and barrels casting shadows with gunfire? You were talking about an FPS, whether you meant to or not.

Let's talk instead about changing the boolean visibility of a tile according to how much light is falling on it. That is, we are not just changing its brightness, we are changing whether it is "visible" or "outside vision". Aliens RL already uses this principle in a limited way to do the "dark" environment of the storage tower, by decreasing the vision radius. But we could take it further than that and generally calculate for every tile not just whether it is visible from the player's position, but if there is enough light falling on it from any nearby sources for them to actually see what is there. Thus in a dark area with a few lights, the player might have a large vision radius but still be unable to see most of their surroundings. (In fact, I think that somebody - possibly me - already suggested elsewhere the idea of having flare pickups in Aliens RL, which could be used to permanently light up areas in the storage tower.)

In fact we can make it a "fuzzy" boolean. If a tile is less than 100% lit, but greater than 0%, then the tile itself is drawn - in a darker colour, if possible - but there is a <100% chance of drawing any object at that location which the player has not already seen. That chance would depend on the amount of light, and also how easy the object is to see. Small and immobile objects (like pistol clips) would be much more difficult to see than large and mobile ones (like aliens). Light-emitting objects (such as, well, lights) are the easiest to see of all. In general: light, motion and size determine whether one thing is perceived by the visual senses of another. In a stealth-oriented game, this would all apply to the enemies as much as to the player.

Of course, this is all interesting as an intellectual exercise, but it needs to add gameplay to be worth doing (particularly since it will multiply the number of LOS tests that need to be done). In AliensRL, the player can't sneak up on the aliens, and the aliens already wait motionless until they are "seen" before they attack. This already means that in the dark environment of the storage tower they get to ambush the player, and if the player goes poking about in the corners of rooms looking for extra pistol clips then they might find an alien instead. As it stands there's not much benefit to having the system I describe above. It just introduces some extra randomness to the edges of the visible area, which is the player is not able to influence.

However, consider if the aliens are given a larger vision range than the player (at least in darkness) and if they only wait to be seen before advancing if the player is moving away from them. Now the player faces the possibility of entering a room through a door in the middle of one wall, moving into the room in one direction, and then finding that aliens have advanced behind them and are between them and the door. If they have flares, they can reduce this possibility by chucking a flare to one side of the room when they enter. In dark areas in general, assuming that flares are in plentiful supply, using a flare could save the player a lot of bullets. Of course, we don't need a full light-based visibility system to get this effect; we only need flares, and some minor changes to alien behaviour...

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