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[Sdlonyer55]

I can't see any reason why these aren't auto-generated for every character. Missing the Halls of Carnage and the Armory, and sometimes even only one of these, can really put a huge damper in any game beyond 'I'm Too Young To Die' difficulty, through entirely no fault of the player whatsoever. I know randomness is a big part of RL games but I really can't see any reason why any player should be penalized 100% purely based on luck. The only real reason to restrict it is if you feel that the total benefit from clearing all the bonus levels is more than a single player should have. If that is the case, however, the proper course is to reduce the individual level rewards to be more consistent, rather than let the random number generator turn some characters into gods and some into welfare recipients.

Also, it might be really nice if The Wall had a switch somewhere in the starting chamber that collapsed all the walls on the level. This could allow AoMr and maybe even crazy AoB characters to attempt to clear the wall or pick up a backpack. You could even counteract the advantage of this alternate entry by the disadvantage of collapsing all your cover and not having the wall to use to maneuver the Barons/Knights around

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

I don't wan't someone too see everything every game. That's why some levels are inaccessible for various (non-melee-build, not generated, too strong, no-RL) reasons.

[Malek Deneith]

"Penalized 100% purely based on luck"?? Hello there, special levels are privilage, not right. And trust me - missing Armory or Halls of Carnage doesn't make game too hard or unbeatable - you just need to try harder, and smarter, instead of relying on "The Big Gun" to see through all the odds.

The game was beaten pure melee before LS was introduced. I think there was sucessfull play through AoMr before mods (not sure though). Blade got somewhere to level 12 or 17 using only knives. I constantly try beating the game with shotguns and shotugns only, and keep getting better at it. There is no reason to give up just beacuse you don't get BFG from Halls or ammo boost from Armory.

[Sdlonyer55]

"Penalized 100% purely based on luck"?? Hello there, special levels are privilage, not right. And trust me - missing Armory or Halls of Carnage doesn't make game too hard or unbeatable - you just need to try harder, and smarter, instead of relying on "The Big Gun" to see through all the odds.

The game was beaten pure melee before LS was introduced. I think there was sucessfull play through AoMr before mods (not sure though). Blade got somewhere to level 12 or 17 using only knives. I constantly try beating the game with shotguns and shotugns only, and keep getting better at it. There is no reason to give up just beacuse you don't get BFG from Halls or ammo boost from Armory.

What do you call a penalization entirely 100% based on chance. Not Luck? It doesn't matter whether you want to call these levels a privilege or a responsibility, that has absolutely 0 bearing on my point that your ammo, health, and armament situation are highly dependent on your special level selection, which is purely based on chance. I'd even prefer an unlocking system to this, for example, you only generate the Halls of Carnage in your game if you have defeated 95%+ of hell spawn up to that point, or whatever. Also, you must have missed where I said that if the benefits from the special levels are considered too great as a sum total, then they could be reduced. Malek, your rebuttal fundamentally says 'this would make it too easy, these 'bonuses' aren't all necessary,', and thus you should be in agreement with at least most of my suggestion, rather than arguing against it.

Maybe on the lower difficulty levels it makes no difference, on easy those levels can be looked at as bonuses. Is it really in the realm of feasibility for anyone but the elite to manage those accomplishments on Ultra-Violence without the Halls, Armory etc? Even Hurt Me Plenty is pretty brutal. The benefits are three-fold, bonus controllable experience, bonus items, and you can typically expect to leave most of those bonus levels with more health than you entered with thanks to placed supercharges, etc. I know I will be super-pissed if I make it to around level 15 on UV and have not seen a Halls. That will easily be a defining point in the game that I can point to when I die, because chances are that is exactly what will happen in Hell if you are BFG-less on Ultra-Violence. Perhaps I just need to 'try harder and be smarter,' or perhaps you can admit that the higher difficulty levels border on near-impossible and unplayable if you have some bad luck in your early item and level generation, and *then* get hit with a game lacking all the optional special levels. ( DoomRL god-players, not withstanding)

I can see why you'd want to prevent someone from seeing it all in one game to increase replay-ability, but I think you've designed that right into the game. Let's be serious, DoomRL is hard enough that very few people are going to complete it, even on lower difficulty levels, ever. Let alone clear all the special levels. Aside from that fact, the challenge modes often force you into or out of certain special levels, changing the path through the game. Also, though this is not a technical requirement, you've also made it pretty unwise to enter the Mortuary without a BFG. Hell, I've completed the game perhaps 4 times , (and died a couple hundred probably) including AoMr and I've never even seen the Cathedral, and I've cleared the halls perhaps 3 times due to rarely encountering it. I know for a fact if I manage to get that deep in Ultra-Violence, a win simply will not come without seeing the Halls unless I find a lucky BFG. Not to mention that, at least for me, I find it a pretty big buzzkill when I have a solid character going not to get to test his meddle against every possible challenge I come across. It is especially fun to test your stronger characters against the ever-dangerous Mortuary. Shouldn't this be a possibility for every character?

I know this is probably a little more work than the average change, but if the issue is keeping things fresh and varied, consider taking a page from Nethack special level generation (Mine-town is a good example.) Have multiple versions of the Armory for example, guarantee one in each game, but chosen at random, such that someone would have to play each special stage at least 3-4 times to see all the varieties of it. Actually, this sounds like a positive change worth considering regardless. If all else fails, at least increasing the chance to generate all the special levels would be, in my mind, a positive band-aid fix.

Aren't there enough totally random occurences of fireballs being launched at you from off-screen, setting off deadly barrel reactions and every other possible twist of fate, that we don't necessarily need to leave the path of the dungeon purely to chance as well? Is it really a positive thing to generate two identical characters, one of them receiving every bonus level in his dungeon generation, and the other seeing only the Arena, the Court, and perhaps the Wall?

Life may not be fair, but it should be whenever possible.

Edit 1: It would be really easy to reduce the rewards in the special levels, I would think. Delete 1-2 supercharges from the Halls. Knock half the mods and armor out of the Armory. With the Halls, at least, once you have done that the stage has potentially more risk than reward, making it less of a 'bonus' and more of an 'extra challenge'.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

You should make Grayswandir appear in every game of NetHack on level 20 granted, because it isn't fair that some characters get it early, and some don't get it at all
You should make an guaranteed AoS appear in ADoM at the bottom of ToEF, because otherwise it's unfair that you can't save Khellie just because of luck.
You should make an guaranteed +3 bonus to berserker if entering the Cathedral, because it's unfair that only melee chars have a chance of getting the LS.
You should make guaranteed that characters on lev 80 of angband get all resistances, because it's unfair that some characters have to play ages to get them all and have a chance with Morgoth.
You should have a guaranteed heavy poison resist item appear before the character enters the Slime Pit in Crawl, because it's unfair that...

... etc, etc.

Sure, most of those can be found just by investing more time into the current game, while in DoomRL you can't scum for anything -- but note that DoomRL is far shorter, so the time invested means "playing another game".

Also, this is something that I love about roguelike permadeath -- "You have a problem? LIVE WITH IT TO THE END!" The beauty of permadeath :)

[DaEezT]

Sure, most of those can be found just by investing more time into the current game, while in DoomRL you can't scum for anything -- but note that DoomRL is far shorter, so the time invested means "playing another game".

QFT

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

BTW, the BFG requirement is covered by the halls of carnage -- there is a granted BFG there, and the level itself is granted -- so you can ALWAYS get a BFG. The cathedral and mortuary also ALWAYS appear on difficulty > I'm too young to die, and never on lower.

The only random appearing levels are hell's armory, city of skulls and spider's lair -- and those don't have any unique rewards.

[Sdlonyer55]

BTW, the BFG requirement is covered by the halls of carnage -- there is a granted BFG there, and the level itself is granted -- so you can ALWAYS get a BFG. The cathedral and mortuary also ALWAYS appear on difficulty > I'm too young to die, and never on lower.

The only random appearing levels are hell's armory, city of skulls and spider's lair -- and those don't have any unique rewards.

Thanks for educating me on the Halls and Mortuary generation. Though the Armory will be a much greater help when modifying standard weapons + new Whizkid is in release, I didn't realize the others were guaranteed.

Also, as for the Nethack example...obviously guaranteeing GS is silly and not really similar to what I mean. Sokoban, Minetown w/ Cellar + Luck Stone, Fort Ludious (yet to ascend and not see it), these are guaranteed 'bonus' levels I think of. Most of the 'bonus' levels that come immediately to my mind, like the Bigroom, weren't bonuses since they simply replaced another standard level in the dungeon.

[Potman]

In fact, Nethack's a bit of a bad example as most of its bonus levels are indeed guaranteed. Even Grayswandir, if you're lawful and feel like spending hours of sacrificing on an altar.

[Sdlonyer55]

In fact, Nethack's a bit of a bad example as most of its bonus levels are indeed guaranteed. Even Grayswandir, if you're lawful and feel like spending hours of sacrificing on an altar.

That's kind of why I chose it, since I think most would agree it wouldn't be too cool to have a gnomish mine-less, sokoban-less character. But I digress.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Graswandir -- lawful and spending hours sacrificing lat an altair? Maaan, it's true owner would have a sarcastic remark if he knew that ^_^.