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Author Topic: AliensRL Ammo System Seems Right At Home In DoomRL  (Read 5103 times)

Sdlonyer55

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AliensRL Ammo System Seems Right At Home In DoomRL
« on: December 05, 2007, 08:01 »

Although I guess I'll be told that 'inventory management is an important part of the game' as I have heard about so many games (many of which were in dire need of a fun factor injection via an inventory nonsense overhaul) in the past, I figured I would still throw this out there.

The AliensRL ammo system, with a maximum per ammo type without actual inventory space being used, seems perfect for DoomRL. It's exactly the way it was in Doom (200 bullets, 400 with backpack, 50/100 shells, etc) and would I believe make the inventory/ammo system a good deal less cumbersome. Sure, at first there is maybe a little strategy when deciding what to carry between levels, but once you've played a few games it's the exact save thing over and over, prioritizing health, strong armor, and rare ammo over shells and bullets. In many of my games this makes shotguns almost totally unusable, as I'd be leaving multiple medkits behind per level to open up space for the shotgun and the shells. Making these decisions easier, or a non factor, would cause the game to play quicker and be more fun, in my opinion.

Additionally, this can only reduce the learning curve (fewer, even trivial decisions for a new player, is good, and no Roguelike is easy enough that a little learning curve smoothing will cause a notable effect) without substantially affecting overall difficulty. Also, when playing on lower difficulties, one can literally begin getting Plasma Cells on level 2 (Arena) and will frequently not see a Plasma Rifle before level 10 (13 on my last game of ITYTD.) Are these cells *supposed* to be nearly useless and merely a plague on your inventory?

On the same note, weapons could be done similar to ammo, with multiple slots that function more or less as the current prepared slot, allowing you to equip one of each weapon you'd found. The Doomguy never had to leave weapons behind, and there were always good tactical uses even for the pistol and shotgun deep in the game.

If necessary, the inventory slots could be reduced to account for the new ammo/weapon carrying style. In this fashion, you could still streamline the ammo interface without improving the players inventory situation, if so desired (or you can implement these countermeasures only for Angel of Light Travel). There could even be a halfway point, for example, if you decide 400 bullets is an appropriate capacity, allow the first 100/200/300 to go into the 'phantom bullet inventory' and have any further bullets the character wishes to take overflow into the standard 100 bullet piles in the regular inventory. This would even open up the door for automatic weapon/ammo pickup or unloading (from the floor), which would further reduce the 'managerial overhead' of playing the game, and could be set only to function with no enemies on-screen perhaps, or when the level is cleared.

Also, on a very minor note, it might be prudent to swap the Use and Unload keys. I know this is easily accomplished in the .ini but that doesn't mean it couldn't be changed by default. It's a bit too easy to accidentally use items from inventory by mistyping a 'u', I've done it many times. Additionally, you tend to be unloading floor weapons substantially more often than using medkits, and 'u' is much more streamlined for running around and quickly unloading a bunch of guns than 'U' is. Alternatively, perhaps there could be a confirmation dialogue for medkits and phase devices if you are over 90% health or there are no enemies in sight, respectively. Even a full-time confirmation seems better to me than none at all.

In closing, I'd like to say that these ideas don't come from a desire to change the difficulty of the game or personal laziness. I've spent a ton of time with Roguelikes, especially Nethack/Slashem, and having played millions of turns in these games, I feel like there's no reason to count out any modifications that reduce the keystrokes and time we spend shuffling our inventories.
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Malek Deneith

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Re: AliensRL Ammo System Seems Right At Home In DoomRL
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2007, 15:10 »

I have to say I'm against that one - while I understand that ammo management can be... cubersome... at times, but generally if we remove inventory the game will degenerate. The way it is now you have to think about what you are carrying, and make chocies, for example wether you want to keep said plasma cells from arena in hopes of it beeing useful, or will you ditch it and keep only ammo for weapons you have - this ads a bit tactical depth to the game. If we remove that the game will change into something like "Oh, another stack of plasma... meh, got enough *yawn* moving right along"
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Sdlonyer55

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Re: AliensRL Ammo System Seems Right At Home In DoomRL
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2007, 10:11 »

Well, the way it functions now on the lower difficulty levels I think that plasma is often totally useless. You will regularly cart it for 5+ levels, passing up small med-packs or mods as luck would have it.

I think there's plenty of room for a middle ground. Have those first 100 cells go into your 'bandoleer' and make any subsequent ones need to be carried in standard fashion. You could even create a new bandoleer item just for this purpose, it could even be an armor with 0 reduction and operate similar to the Gyro-Stabilizer in AliensRL, providing abilities but not protection and adding another level of tactical decision. Or, of course, this functionality could be built into the backpack instead. I think this might even solve some other problems, since by the time you are around the Wall, you tend to be using your resources faster and inventory is a bit less of a problem, making the actual benefits of those additional slots a little less overpowering. Also, I think this would solve the 'deep shotgun game' problem, where the only way to try and do a mostly shotgun clear of the game (or, realistically, even to use shotguns regularly past level 15) is to cart practically every shell you come across in the early levels into the much later levels where it is nigh impossible to find any shells (and sometimes, 9mm.) This, of course, it not typically that feasible since you need to conserve health resources from those earlier levels in your inventory so you can clear said later levels.

Again, I'm not suggesting all ammo should be like this, but even allowing a clip or two per weapon in 'old Doom ammo' style would make a lot of the early ammo drops less useless and minimize inventory shuffling between stages. Since the problem is overflow, even a small increase to an 'invisible' ammo stash would change or eliminate the need to create large piles of ammo at the downstairs and decide whether to take just your in-gun clip to the next level or dump a health pack for an extra stack.

Really I guess the main issue I'm getting at, inventory annoyance aside, is the fact that if you have got any reasonable amount of Armor/Health/Nukes/Phase Devices, it's pretty much totally impractical to try and keep a type of shotgun, a chain gun, a rocket launcher, and a cell weapon. I often find myself in positions where even three of those will not fit in my inventory, because to cart along those (easily replaceable) shells and bullets, I have to dump medkits. Even worse is trying to carry mods you can't apply, especially in the Armory, though this is much mitigated by the new Whizkid changes incoming and modifying normal weapons. The way the game typically plays for me now is I'll pick two weapons, typically a rocket launcher and a plasma rifle/chaingun as I find them, and just bulk up on the ammo for those two. I think it fits the spirit of Doom more to have a wide selection of usable weapons with a shorter ammo supply.

That's certainly how I remember Doom and Doom II, having 5 shells, 2 rockets, 28 bullets and 14 cells and trying to figure out how to clear the way from point A and B. What I don't remember, is entering the stage with a chaingun, a rocket launcher, 800 bullets, and 50 rockets and using exactly the same weapons and strategy in every room because the tactical benefits of using the right weapon for the right job is completely negated by being forced to dump healthpacks to make that possible.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: AliensRL Ammo System Seems Right At Home In DoomRL
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2007, 15:19 »

Having inventory in TWO places would really messup the interface and be very unintuitive for newcomers.

HOWEVER - I have another suggestion instead - how about letting some usable items stack : small medpacks (4), large medpacks (2), phase devices (2)...
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Re: AliensRL Ammo System Seems Right At Home In DoomRL
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2007, 15:23 »

HOWEVER - I have another suggestion instead - how about letting some usable items stack : small medpacks (4), large medpacks (2), phase devices (2)...
Now THATS what I call an good proposal - I'd add Weapon Mods (2-3) to that too
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DaEezT

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Re: AliensRL Ammo System Seems Right At Home In DoomRL
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2007, 15:27 »

HOWEVER - I have another suggestion instead - how about letting some usable items stack : small medpacks (4), large medpacks (2), phase devices (2)...
Now THATS what I call an good proposal - I'd add Weapon Mods (2-3) to that too

I smell balance issues :p
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: AliensRL Ammo System Seems Right At Home In DoomRL
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2007, 15:37 »

Mods could only stack if the same. As for the ballance issue -- I thought about reducing inventory space by 2 or 3, and add some additional info to the item screen.
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Sdlonyer55

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Re: AliensRL Ammo System Seems Right At Home In DoomRL
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2007, 21:53 »

This certainly solves the problem and would be a lot easier, both to implement and to understand. It'd be really great to stack health kits, phase devices, and mods since those are the real inventory killers.
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BDR

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Re: AliensRL Ammo System Seems Right At Home In DoomRL
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2007, 04:26 »

..if medkits stacked, I might actually start carrying phase devices.  I'd much rather use a slot in inventory for potential damage repair and thus guaranteed life-saving than I would for a single shot in the dark that will *maybe* save my ass and quite possibly kill me instead (the levels aren't *nearly* as big as Crawl's are and even in that game you run into this hazard for uncleared levels; my imagination says the frying pan-to-fire transition in DoomRL would thus be even worse and more frequent), but if I don't need to worry about my medpack level...

Eh, I'll just keep looking for a nuke. :P
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Sdlonyer55

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Re: AliensRL Ammo System Seems Right At Home In DoomRL
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2007, 06:49 »

I seem to have good luck with the Phase Devices getting me out of trouble, I generally drop small kits to keep 2 along. However, the nuke is something I rarely have room for, especially if found early.
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RickVoid

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Re: AliensRL Ammo System Seems Right At Home In DoomRL
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2007, 07:55 »

..if medkits stacked, I might actually start carrying phase devices.  I'd much rather use a slot in inventory for potential damage repair and thus guaranteed life-saving than I would for a single shot in the dark that will *maybe* save my ass and quite possibly kill me instead

Agreed!
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