Chaosforge Forum

  • March 28, 2024, 22:41
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.



Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: [M|100%!YAVP] Triggerhappy  (Read 2187 times)

Sdlonyer55

  • Elder
  • Lance Corporal
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 32
    • View Profile
[M|100%!YAVP] Triggerhappy
« on: December 13, 2007, 10:23 »

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (v.0.9.8.7 BETA 3) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Jay, level 11 Demon Lieutenant, defeated the Cyberdemon
 on level 25 of the Phobos base.
 He survived 216889 turns and scored 106731 points.
 He didn't like it too rough.

 He killed 454 out of 454 hellspawn. (100%)
 This ass-kicking marine killed all of them!

 He found the Phobos Arena.
 He stormed the Chained Court.
 He ventured into the Halls of Carnage.
 He fought on Hell's Arena.
 He became a champion of Hell's Arena!
 He faced The Wall.
 And he cleared it completely!.
 He was caught in the Mortuary!
 And he managed to clear it!
-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  #X.........................................................
  #..........................................................
  #................................###.......................
  #................................###.......................
  #................................###.....................##
  #..|...............................................###...##
  #..|...............................................###...##
  #..}...............................................###.....
  #..........................................................
  #..............###.......###..###........###...............
  #..............###.......#>#..###........###...............
  #..............###.......###..###........###...............
  #..................................###.....................
  #..................................###.....................
  #............................###...###..###................
  #............................###........###................
  #............................###........###................
  #..........................................................
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 118/70   Experience 54739/11
  ToHit +3  ToDmg Ranged +3  ToDmg Melee +3

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

    Ironman        (Level 2)
    Finesse        (Level 2)
    Tough as nails (Level 1)
    Son of a bitch (Level 3)
    Eagle Eye      (Level 1)
    Triggerhappy   (Level 2)

  SoB->SoB->TH->Iro->TH->EE->Fin->Fin->TaN->SoB->Iro->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   Angelic Armor [6/6] (87%)
    [ b] [ Weapon     ]   advanced BFG 9000 (8d9) [90/130] (D1R1M1)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   plasteel boots [8/8] (69%)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   modified plasma rifle (1d8)x8 [0/52] (M1)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] modified chaingun (1d7)x5 [50/50] (D1)
    [ b] modified BFG 9000 (8d8) [100/100] (R1)
    [c] blue armor [2/2] (100%)
    [d] red armor [4/4] (100%)
    [e] red armor [4/4] (58%)
    [f] 10mm ammo (x36)
    [g] power cell (x46)
    [h] power cell (x70)
    [ i] power cell (x70)
    [j] large med-pack
    [k] large med-pack
    [l] large med-pack
    [m] large med-pack
    [n] large med-pack
    [ o] large med-pack
    [p] large med-pack
    [q] large med-pack
    [r] large med-pack
    [ s] phase device

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    50 former humans
    37 former sergeants
    28 former captains
    31 imps
    37 demons
    34 lost souls
    62 cacodemons
    16 barons of hell
    1 Cyberdemon
    12 hell knights
    39 arachnotrons
    7 former commandos
    11 pain elementals
    9 arch-viles
    9 mancubi

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
  On level 7 he witnessed the Wall.
  He massacred the evil behind the Wall!
  On level 13 he ventured into the Halls of Carnage.
  On level 22 he was foolish enough to enter the Mortuary!
  He managed to clear the Mortuary from evil!
  Then at last he found Phobos Arena!
  On level 25 he finally defeated the Cyberdemon.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the
 Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the
 Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the
 Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon.
 Fire -- Choose target... The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits
 the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the
 Cyberdemon. Boom! The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the
 Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the
 Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon.
 Fire -- Choose target... The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits
 the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the
 Cyberdemon. The Cyberdemon fires! You are hit!
 You swap your weapon. The Cyberdemon reloads his rocket launcher.
 Fire -- Choose target... The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The Cyberdemon
 dies. Congratulations! You defeated the Cyberdemon! Press <Enter>

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 Before him 128 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 119 of those were killed.
 4 of those were killed by something unknown.
 1 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 2 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 Some rumours though, say that the Cyberdemon was killed already!
 Is he immortal? 2 souls claim to have killed him...
 2 killed the bastard and survived.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Just wrapped up a medium game using SoaB -> Triggerhappy, and it is really devastating. Chaingun one-rounds Cacodemons/Pain Elementals over 3/4th of the time, Arachnotrons/Hell Knights down in two vollies, only Barons and Viles reliably required 3. Cyberdemon got one shot off before the plasma fried him. I didn't even need the BFG in the mortuary, the plasma rifle decimated the Viles more efficiently, and this is perhaps the first game I didn't have major cell shortage problems near the end. I think I could have (easily) completed the game with just the chaingun, especially if I found an advanced one. My main problem was inventory space, and I was commonly leaving behind health packs to keep what I thought would be a necessary stockpile of cells for the Mortuary. When the cyberdemon fell I still had 9 large health packs, ~175% health from a Hell 9 supercharge, 2 extra red armors, 1 extra blue armor and Angelic Armor at ~87%. I cleared the Mortuary while still boosted from the initial supercharge (having used only one in the level, had about 110% life when it fell silent) and with the only red armor I wore there still at 46%. I've never come close to clearing it without multiple health packs and some fancy fleeing.

Honestly, despite how friggin cool this spec is, I think it may even be a little overpowered. It turns the chaingun into a real beast, and it is quite easy to stock up on 9mm ammo. To be fair, it kind of needs a point in Eagle Eye or the miss-rate is pretty maddening, and of course it only works on two weapons, and frequently wastes ammo against the weakest foes. I don't want to see it nerfed I guess, just I was impressed with its utility.

I was mulling over the related damage numbers and I think these examples are accurate, please point out the inaccuracies if they exist. Of course, I assumed all shots fired hit.

Chaingun (no traits, target 0 armor)
(1-6) x 5 = 5-30 / round, 3.5 dmg/9mm

(target 3 armor)
([1-6] x 5) - (3 armor x 5) = 0?-15, 1.5 dmg/9mm

Chaingun (SoaB 3, target 0 armor)
(4-9) x 5 = 20-45 / round, 6.5 dmg/9mm

(target 3 armor)
([4-9] x 5) - 15 = 5-30 round, 3.5 dmg/9mm

Chaingun (SoaB 3, Triggerhappy 2, target 0 armor)
(4-9) x 9 = 36-81 / round, 11.7 dmg/9mm -> (72% - 162% damage on the doom character [no ironman]!? this could be a problem if there ever is, in fact, a deathmatch/multiplayer.)

(target 3 armor)
([4-9] x 9) - (3 armor x 9) = 9-54 / round, 8.7 dmg/9mm -> (18% - 108% damage as represented on the doom guy)

The numbers for the plasma rifle are even more devastating, since it gets substantially more effect from SoaB, starting at 8 shots, and as a rule has better armor penetration.

Plasma Rifle (SoaB 3, Triggerhappy 2, target 0 armor)
(4-11) x 12 = 48 - 132, 7.5 dmg/cell -> (96% - 264% damage!?)

(target 3 armor)
([4-11] x 12) - (3 armor x 12) = 12 - 96 / round, 4.5 dmg/cell (24% - 192% damage, with 3 armor!?)

In order to create a scenario where you CANNOT be one-rounded at 100% health, by a plasma rifle with no mods, and SoaB 3 / Triggerhappy 2, you would need a whopping 7 armor.

([4-11] x 12) - (7 armor x 12) = 0? - 48 / round, 2 dmg/cell (0-96% damage still possible, in ONE ROUND, with 7 armor!!)

Of course, the BFG clocks in with an 8-64 damage + (undisclosed detonation damage) + (area damage), which I hypothesize produces, at very best (less against armored targets) 70-90 damage on the main target, giving it a theoretical best case scenario against single targets of about 2 dmg/cell. I believe that's a very generous assessment of the main target damage, and that it in fact never reaches this efficiency outside of closely massed packs.

Once you begin adding damage and speed mods, as well as magazine mods into the picture, it even makes the BFG a weak and inefficient use of cells unless there is a certifiably enormous pack to fire it into.

Additionally, I found SoaB to be very effective in making shotguns a lot more useful at medium to long range, especially against lower life enemies such as the various classes of human, since it helps to nullify the damage/range reduction. This makes the combat shotgun a pretty handy "off-screen shooter" in places like the Arena, as you can get a good distance away, take advantage of the auto-hit + spread, and still enjoy decent damage (relative to your safety level).

Anyhow, just some thoughts, and I'd be interested to hear anyone else's take on SoaB/Triggerhappy. I'm not sure offensive traits like Reloader and Finesse (though obviously Whizkid is very valuable, and Shottyman with Double Shotguns is quite fun) can compete with this amount of utility.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 14:52 by Malek Deneith »
Logged

Blade

  • Tester
  • Elder Chaos Guard
  • Brigadier General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 691
    • View Profile
    • Upyachka
Re: DoomRL 0.9.8.7 BETA 3 released!
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2007, 13:43 »

Please post your mortems(and comments to them) into the Post Mortem section and use
[mortem ][ /mortem] tags(without spaces).

Anyway, good game!) Congratulations!

I had won 0987 BETA2 on UV with SoaB*3 and TH*2, they are my favourite traits because i always preferred CG in DooMRL.) I was carrying PR, and lots of cells for it, and even RL, but PR i haven't used much because it eats LOTS of ammo(i had 7-8 full inventory slots for cells when entering Mortuary, but they all gone very quickly after clearing the left side, and i was forced to retreat by multiple BoHs that came from the right side), and even when you have SoaB*3, TH*2, EE*2 and you are in Aggressive mode, it still not always kills Arachnotron in one burst, so then why not to use CG, it also takes 2 bursts, but of  much cheaper and common ammo. RL i never used at all(except for breaking walls, but a stack of 10 rockets is enough for this). So IMHO better tactic(than mine previous) is to carry RL with 10 rockets(for breaking walls), PR with 2 stacks of cells, 3 large meds + 1 phase(my standart combination, if this won't save you, then additional 1 or 2 meds won't either)), 1-2 armors, and CG with 10mm ammo that is filling the rest of your inventory.)

Best traits for such game on UV(in my opinion) - EE*2 -> SoaB*3 -> TH*2 -> Fin*2(i picked IM here before, but it's not as good as Finesse, the problem at this point are AVs, BoHs, and Arachnotrons, and it's better to kill them faster, then to withstand more damage) -> HR*3(last problems are Arachnotrons and Cybie, HR is excellent for both).

Also, reward for clearing Spider's Lair is nice, but IMHO 2 armor shards are useless there, because often at the end of the battle you armor is completely destroyed, 1 red armor would be nicer. And some cells(it's lair of spiders that are firing cells, that's logical).

P.S. Kornel, why i can't fire outside my LoS?)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 14:57 by Blade »
Logged
Low orbit ion cannon damaged my brain!!1
Now i'm an idiot!1 Kill me, somebody!!11

Sdlonyer55

  • Elder
  • Lance Corporal
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 32
    • View Profile
Re: DoomRL 0.9.8.7 BETA 3 released!
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2007, 14:32 »

Thanks for the info, Blade. I've been trying to get a functional game going in UV but I'm just not good enough yet I guess. Tend to meet disaster well before level 10 in most cases.

So, you're of the opinion that Eagle Eye 2 is worth it? One for sure, but I found my hit rate to be pretty effective with just the one point. My reasoning is that that second point of Eagle Eye (and technically the first, I suppose, though I'd never skip having at least 1 point) does you no good if you are already 'destined to hit.' What I mean is, and I'm just throwing numbers out here to illustrate, if your base hit chance is 50% and Eagle Eye added 30% per point, that second point is marginally less effective than the first. However, if you are a very strong advocate for Eagle Eye 2 I'll certainly start picking it up myself.

I certainly agree with the Plasma Rifle eating up ammo. It is devastating, but you're totally right about how it will often kill enemies in 2 bursts the same as the Chaingun, making it much more wasteful. Of course, it also needs to be reloaded substantially more frequently. I also noticed exactly what you talk about with the rocket launcher. I tried using it to clear the Wall (other than blowing it open) and was getting my butt handed to me, especially while reloading. I'd never had this problem before, possibly due to trait selection, but I was being fired on sometimes repeatedly during a single reload by Barons not even on my screen when I began reloading. As soon as I switched back over to the chaingun things became immensely more manageable. Later in the game, I dumped my advanced RL despite its having 4 mods as it just wasn't effective.

I'm curious to hear your reasoning and opinion on two issues respectively, Blade. First, I'm curious to know how much ammo you feel is necessary to carry around for the chaingun in a game of this type, let's say, on H or UV. Second, and more importantly, if I am reading your response right you will dump even large health kits for 9mm ammo stockpiles? If so, is this because you do a drastic amount of your firing at off-screen enemies (and if yes, do you feel the restriction to off-screen aiming is much of a nerf? it seems you can still get most angles of attack, albeit less reliably...)

I generally feel that the large medkit is the most valuable regular item to have in an inventory slot, and I typically will dump most any other item for it, except sometimes for good armor. I have certainly found myself in situations where, having 6 large med kits I won, but would have lost having less. I realize these sorts of melees are of the type that I may have been able to avoid, but sometimes you get dumped in an arena or caves type level with 4 or more Arachnotrons or other big nasty already on screen, and if you aren't wearing Red Armor, you are looking at a battle of attrition. However, as noted in my mortem, and this is a recurring theme for me, when I do clear the game it is almost universally with many, many supplies of medkits left over. Obviously, your results are better than mine and I'd like to hear your input, especially as it pertains to H/UV.
Logged

Malek Deneith

  • Grand Inquisitor Emeritus
  • Grand Inquisitor
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1256
    • View Profile
Re: [M|100%!YAVP] Triggerhappy
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2007, 14:54 »

Info that belongs to post mortem split, tagged and moved.
Logged
Inquisition - saving your soul, one bolter shell at a time.
Spoiler: "Hackmaster Kills" (click to show/hide)

Blade

  • Tester
  • Elder Chaos Guard
  • Brigadier General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 691
    • View Profile
    • Upyachka
Re: [M|100%!YAVP] Triggerhappy
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2007, 15:41 »

Thanks for the info, Blade. I've been trying to get a functional game going in UV but I'm just not good enough yet I guess. Tend to meet disaster well before level 10 in most cases.

Main problem for me on UV is to survive Hell's Arena, sometimes it takes 10 tries to do that(i will try to find good solution, i have two ideas now, thanks to you. First is to equip chaingun and combat shotgun(not chaingun and chaingun as i did before) to fire combat shotgun outside the LoS to scan for Cacos, and then to kill them with CG when they are moving towards you. And second is to pick only one EE and SoaB as the second trait(will explain below, why). If so, i have a large med, blue armor, 200%, lots of 10mm ammo and RL(useless, but i still have it)), so before HA game is a matter of luck and caution, after it's still a matter of luck and caution, but also a little matter of skill.)

So, you're of the opinion that Eagle Eye 2 is worth it? One for sure, but I found my hit rate to be pretty effective with just the one point. My reasoning is that that second point of Eagle Eye (and technically the first, I suppose, though I'd never skip having at least 1 point) does you no good if you are already 'destined to hit.' What I mean is, and I'm just throwing numbers out here to illustrate, if your base hit chance is 50% and Eagle Eye added 30% per point, that second point is marginally less effective than the first. However, if you are a very strong advocate for Eagle Eye 2 I'll certainly start picking it up myself.

That victory was in 0987, where was our previous tactics. There EE*2 was really worth it, 100 times, because i was always in Coward when using CG. Now our tactics have changed, our default tactic is Cautious, so i need to test, if EE*2 really is making any difference. If not, then it's better to pick EE*1, and right after that, SoaB.

I certainly agree with the Plasma Rifle eating up ammo. It is devastating, but you're totally right about how it will often kill enemies in 2 bursts the same as the Chaingun, making it much more wasteful. Of course, it also needs to be reloaded substantially more frequently. I also noticed exactly what you talk about with the rocket launcher. I tried using it to clear the Wall (other than blowing it open) and was getting my butt handed to me, especially while reloading. I'd never had this problem before, possibly due to trait selection, but I was being fired on sometimes repeatedly during a single reload by Barons not even on my screen when I began reloading. As soon as I switched back over to the chaingun things became immensely more manageable. Later in the game, I dumped my advanced RL despite its having 4 mods as it just wasn't effective.

Personally i haven't seen reason to risk and to try to clear The Wall, i haven't a lack of ammo, and ARL i didn't needed at all. Only for ability to speak: "I cleared The Wall and have 100% kill count"?) Hmm, that's a good reason for me.) But only when i figure everything else and will win UV most of the time without problems.

I'm curious to hear your reasoning and opinion on two issues respectively, Blade. First, I'm curious to know how much ammo you feel is necessary to carry around for the chaingun in a game of this type, let's say, on H or UV. Second, and more importantly, if I am reading your response right you will dump even large health kits for 9mm ammo stockpiles? If so, is this because you do a drastic amount of your firing at off-screen enemies (and if yes, do you feel the restriction to off-screen aiming is much of a nerf? it seems you can still get most angles of attack, albeit less reliably...)

I generally feel that the large medkit is the most valuable regular item to have in an inventory slot, and I typically will dump most any other item for it, except sometimes for good armor. I have certainly found myself in situations where, having 6 large med kits I won, but would have lost having less. I realize these sorts of melees are of the type that I may have been able to avoid, but sometimes you get dumped in an arena or caves type level with 4 or more Arachnotrons or other big nasty already on screen, and if you aren't wearing Red Armor, you are looking at a battle of attrition. However, as noted in my mortem, and this is a recurring theme for me, when I do clear the game it is almost universally with many, many supplies of medkits left over. Obviously, your results are better than mine and I'd like to hear your input, especially as it pertains to H/UV.

Ammo > meds. You can survive without meds with just luck and caution(enemies that are missing, lots of firing into darkness to scan for enemies(AMMO, AMMO, AMMO), avoiding dangerous places), but you can't survive without ammo. As additional example: i can win almost every game if i have unlimited source of ammo but no meds, but i can't do that if i have unlimited source of meds, but no ammo.) 3 meds and 1 phase is my standart combination, when i just have health problems, i use meds, only in very dangerous situations, when i see that 3 meds won't save me, i'm using phase, it's saving me where 6 meds are saving you(but your set takes 6 inventory slots, while mine takes only 4). Of course i can fall into situation, where my 3 meds and phase won't save me, and where your 6 meds would be better(i have 5% hp, 1 unhurt BoH is left, i'm using phase and it is teleporting me even closer to BoH), but so can you too. No set of traits/weapons/inventory can grant you 100% victory against RNG.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 15:45 by Blade »
Logged
Low orbit ion cannon damaged my brain!!1
Now i'm an idiot!1 Kill me, somebody!!11
Pages: [1]