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Author Topic: Request for Comments : Armor weight  (Read 7195 times)

Kornel Kisielewicz

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Request for Comments : Armor weight
« on: December 29, 2007, 11:58 »

I have an idea to add a negative bonus to movement speed to all armors, representing their weight. Note that it would be ONLY for movement speed (shot speed and others would be unaffected). This way I could introduce additional mods/traits that would reduce this penalty, and provide some balance to the game (it could be better to take on some places with a lighter armor).

The penalties would be:
green armor : -10% speed
blue armor : -20% speed
red armor : -40% speed
AA : NO modifiers

Mods adding protection would not add to the penalty, so a protection moded green armor would be better than a blue armor. A mobility armor mod would reduce the penalties by 1/2.

Additionaly I would find a place to display those values finally :)

What do you think?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 12:05 by Kornel Kisielewicz »
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Kornel Kisielewicz

RickVoid

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Re: Request for Comments : Armor weight
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2007, 12:03 »

Speed and Dodge huh?

I get hit enough as it is. In order to compensate for this I'd have to blow a trait on hellrunner early on.

If we're going to "balance" the game, why don't we let enemies use health globes/berserk packs/armor shards/nukes, since they can already use med kits, armor, and any weapons they may find. :(

Sorry. I really don't like this idea.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Request for Comments : Armor weight
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2007, 12:05 »

Um, let's drop that part about dodge -_-.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

RickVoid

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Re: Request for Comments : Armor weight
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2007, 12:07 »

Sorry! :(

I really didn't mean to sound like an ass there. (Which, on a second reading, I really do.)
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Conker

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Re: Request for Comments : Armor weight
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2007, 12:14 »

I think a mobility mod should drop the penalty by a fixed amount - e.g, a green armour should only require one to be non-encumbering, whereas a Red Armour may require four.

The dodge thing to which you've alluded sounds interesting - but rather than a further penalty, you should make it more of a neutral thing. The game's difficult enough, after all.

E.g., blue armour is 'normal', red armour is +10% monster to-hit chance, green armour is -10% monster to-hit chance, no armour is -20% monster to-hit chance. This would also serve to make the initial level less frustrating on higher difficulty levels (when lucky hits from Former foos cause you to bleed down to 40% HP and you have to restart).

Also, I think your penalties are a bit high. Perhaps no penalty for green armour (its positive effect is paltry, to be honest), then 10% for blue, then 20% for red. And maybe even +10% movement speed when unarmoured (again, making that first level better, because you've got a decent chance to get the medikits and not have to restart in frustration).
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 12:15 by Conker »
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DaEezT

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Re: Request for Comments : Armor weight
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2007, 15:30 »

Armor weight = ADoM
This = DoomRL
DoomRL != Adom
=> This != Armor weight


That was the most sane way for me to express how much I am against this concept in DoomRL

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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Request for Comments : Armor weight
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2007, 15:33 »

It works different than in ADOM. Also I only modify the walking speed, nothing more. And it should provide some more things for tactical players, while the small penalties won't be noticable by the casual player.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

DaEezT

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Re: Request for Comments : Armor weight
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2007, 15:37 »

It doesn't matter how much it impacts movement speed. Just having something like that at all feels WRONG.

Look at me, I'm carrying 500 kg of shells and 10mm rounds and 3 spare sets of armor but should I ever wear just one of those 3 armors I carry in my backpack I'll be slowed down.......

Let's cut the heroic marine some slack and let him walk unencumbered into the halls of Hell.
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Conker

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Re: Request for Comments : Armor weight
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2007, 16:28 »

It doesn't matter how much it impacts movement speed. Just having something like that at all feels WRONG.

Look at me, I'm carrying 500 kg of shells and 10mm rounds and 3 spare sets of armor but should I ever wear just one of those 3 armors I carry in my backpack I'll be slowed down.......

Let's cut the heroic marine some slack and let him walk unencumbered into the halls of Hell.

Personally, I think it's good to embrace change every once in a while. After all, you mention ADOM - that used to be just a single dungeon. If someone had said 'What, add a wilderness? No, that = Daggerfall, not ADOM. It feels WRONG' then it wouldn't have been half the game it is today (well, if Thomas Biskup had listened).

Obviously, there are caveats, but we shouldn't reject change purely because it's change and it frightens us - we should have more logical grounds. Otherwise we'll end up with 'No unique weapons, this != Nethack', 'No Unique Monsters, this != Angband', etc etc. It's a bad road to start down. There's no reason not to utilise good ideas just because they're present in other games.

The main problem I can think of is that a lot of situations where you're in trouble are ones where armour just won't help - a minimum of one damage is always done, and the game only allots 50 HP initially. So even if armour reduces all damage to 1, if you get surrounded by three or so Arachnotrons who are hitting with any frequency, you'll still be dead in a couple of rounds.

My point being that armour just isn't that big a part of the game right now. Perhaps if the HP were doubled (and subsequently attack strengths doubled as well), and armour therefore became more important, it'd be worth it. But as it is now, it seems like substantial work for minimal gain.
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Aerton

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Re: Request for Comments : Armor weight
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2007, 06:44 »

Adding something just for the sake of adding something another doesn't sound like a great idea.
The most distinctive features of DoomRL are being doom-inspired, uncomplicated and fast-paced. Armour weight is a good feature for a longer, slower-paced game, but not for a heated action. Save it for XCOMRL.
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Zeb

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Re: Request for Comments : Armor weight
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2007, 07:47 »

It doesn't matter how much it impacts movement speed. Just having something like that at all feels WRONG.

Look at me, I'm carrying 500 kg of shells and 10mm rounds and 3 spare sets of armor but should I ever wear just one of those 3 armors I carry in my backpack I'll be slowed down.......

Let's cut the heroic marine some slack and let him walk unencumbered into the halls of Hell.

Personally, I think it's good to embrace change every once in a while. After all, you mention ADOM - that used to be just a single dungeon. If someone had said 'What, add a wilderness? No, that = Daggerfall, not ADOM. It feels WRONG' then it wouldn't have been half the game it is today (well, if Thomas Biskup had listened).

Obviously, there are caveats, but we shouldn't reject change purely because it's change and it frightens us - we should have more logical grounds. Otherwise we'll end up with 'No unique weapons, this != Nethack', 'No Unique Monsters, this != Angband', etc etc. It's a bad road to start down. There's no reason not to utilise good ideas just because they're present in other games.

The main problem I can think of is that a lot of situations where you're in trouble are ones where armour just won't help - a minimum of one damage is always done, and the game only allots 50 HP initially. So even if armour reduces all damage to 1, if you get surrounded by three or so Arachnotrons who are hitting with any frequency, you'll still be dead in a couple of rounds.

My point being that armour just isn't that big a part of the game right now. Perhaps if the HP were doubled (and subsequently attack strengths doubled as well), and armour therefore became more important, it'd be worth it. But as it is now, it seems like substantial work for minimal gain.

The thing is, ADoM is a slow-paced, serious Roguelike. Anything adding more depth to the game is usually good in that case (As long as it isn't silly or detract from the gameplay experience.) This is a fast-paced, coffee-table roguelike. Adding too much "real" stuff to it for no real reason detracts from the gameplay experience IMO. I have to agree with the majority on this one, this is really something that should be saved for when Kornel releases one of his "serious" roguelikes.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Request for Comments : Armor weight
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2007, 08:02 »

The whole poin is that I have two paths right now. I can either crawl to a DoomRL closing now, leaving it's complexity as it is, or I can introduce new stats. It's the question of wether DoomRL should be developed further or left as it is... you wouldn't like to see it's development stop, would you?

Armor weight in a reduced way (movement speed only -5/-10/-20) will be available in 0.9.8.9 -- if people won't like it I'll remove it for 0.9.9.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

Blade

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Re: Request for Comments : Armor weight
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2007, 08:30 »

Theoretically - i didn't liked this idea much before playing.

Practically - I have played Beta and it seems to be ok. From my feelings armor don't affect speed so much that it would be real problem(at least blue armor). And also ability to see your current speed values is really cool.

Kornel, one question: do armor affects speed of monsters?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 08:41 by Blade »
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Aerton

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Re: Request for Comments : Armor weight
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2007, 08:56 »

That is not an easy suggestion to make..
Being fast and non over-complex was a definitive feature of DRL, it made it a good game, it made it popular.
The scope of proposals implies change of the original vision. DRL is not a kind of game in where you spend time planning far ahead before taking any turn, it is played fast and aggressive. If you want it to become something different now, I think it's better to stop. You know you can not (and I think, do not want) to work on it forever. You have to stop somewhere and it's better to do it at the peak.
I would rather see a brand new game appear on chaosforge, rather than see DRL mutating out of its shape.
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Malek Deneith

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Re: Request for Comments : Armor weight
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2007, 09:20 »

The problem I see with armor weights the way I see it after some testing and rethinking is that it works in an way I think isn't what was intended. It was supposed to make wearing or not wearing heavy armor a tactical decision. The reality is that in most gunfights player is stationary anyways, so the only ones that get hurt by this decision are:
-people who use shottyman/combat shotgun
-people who play melee games (melee people need armor to get alive to the enemy)
-people who open doors and get several shots/fireballs in their face (as discussed recently)
-people who are badly wounded and need to retreat (in this cease armor they were wearing most likely is already giving 0 protection so it becomes a double dead weight)

And before anyone starts, no chaigning sped penalty to evasion penalty again won't help - the accuracy recently seems a bit high anyway.
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