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Author Topic: Nerfing the Chaingun  (Read 8829 times)

Kornel Kisielewicz

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Nerfing the Chaingun
« on: January 02, 2008, 02:52 »

Okay, currently I admit the chaingun path is a lot stronger than the shotgun path. Instead of enpowering the shotgun even more, this time I decided to nerf the chaingun a little. Now the question is how to do that? The possibilities:

a) reduce single bullet damage to 1d5
b) reduce number of bullets to 4 per shot
c) increase firing time
d) reduce accurancy

Now tell me what do you suggest and why that?
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Kornel Kisielewicz

modular

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Re: Nerfing the Chaingun
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2008, 03:16 »

Damage of chaingun:

SoB1: 1d6x5 -> 1d7x5 (+17%)
SoB2: 1d7x5 -> 1d8x5 (+14%)
TH1:  1d8x5 -> 1d8x7 (+40%)
TH2: 1d8x7 -> 1d8x9 (+30%)
SoB3: 1d8x9 -> 1d9x9 (+12%)

Total: 1d6x5 -> 1d9x9 (+170%)

As far as I can tell, triggerhappy needs nerfing, possibly reducing its effect by half, adding one shot instead of 2:

SoB1: 1d6x5 -> 1d7x5 (+17%)
SoB2: 1d7x5 -> 1d8x5 (+14%)
TH1:  1d8x5 -> 1d8x6 (+20%)
TH2: 1d8x6 -> 1d8x7 (+17%)
SoB3: 1d8x7 -> 1d9x7 (+12%)

Total: 1d6x5 -> 1d8x7 (+87%)

Quote
a) reduce single bullet damage to 1d5
b) reduce number of bullets to 4 per shot
c) increase firing time
d) reduce accurancy
a) This would only reduce the damage by ~15%
b) A ~20% nerf
c) Dunno, depends on the delay I guess
d) Again, idunno since there are no numbers on accuracy. This might increase the usefullness of Eagle Eye
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tisiphone

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Re: Nerfing the Chaingun
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2008, 04:49 »

Quote
For whatever n00bs words are worth I agree with Zeb that Trigger-happy Sons of Bitches are overpowered in a really big way. Im with limiting Son of a Bitch to just 2 levels but I would prefer if Triggerhappy just got nerfed to only adding 1 round to the burst of fire and there was some kind of flavour nerf to the chaingun. For example, you could add a warm-up period (0.3-0.4s) before the chaingun starts to fire to demonstrate the barrels accelerating to the right speed. Currently, in a hypothetical no trait situation, I would pick chaingun over combat shotgun as my weapon of choice just because its much easer to use and pretty much as effective (if not more).
http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php?topic=1252.0

I think the biggest problem now is that with a couple of traits the chaingun becomes a lot more powerful then any of the shotguns. But a small nerf to the chaingun wouldnt be a bad thing either.

P.S. modular, I think your maths is wrong.
Son of a Bitch: (1d6+1)*5 i.e. (3.5+1)*5 not (1d7)*5 ;)
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Zeb

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Re: Nerfing the Chaingun
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2008, 04:58 »

I think it's the traits that need nerfing more than the chaingun itself.

I would suggest Reducing SoaB to 2 levels and making TH either only +1 bullet or only 1 level.

Also, Plasma Rifle is also very overpowered compared to its' late-game peers , the Double Shotty and the Rocket Launcher, for the same reasons. This was addressed by myself here. Also note that the fact that SoaB damage is armor piercing is more important in the late game. Nerfing traits would compensate for both weapons.

IIRC, Modular has SoaB much less effective than it actually is: I believe that it gives +1 AP damage, not on extra side on the dice. I may be wrong, if so correct me, but if I'm right the chart should look like this:

On non-armored foes:
NT:     [(1d6)]x5      17.5 damage
SoB1:  [(1d6)+1]x5   22.5 damage
SoB2:  [(1d6)+2]x5   27.5 damage
TH1:   [(1d6)+2]x7   38.5 damage
TH2:   [(1d6)+2]x9   49.5 damage
SoB3:  [(1d6)+3]x9   58.5 damage
About a 225% increase. (Don't have a Calculator handy)

On armor level 2 foes:
NT:    10 damage
SoB1: 13.33 damage
SoB2: 17.5 damage
TH1:   24.5 damage
TH2:   31.5 damage
SoB3: 40.5 damage
305% increase

Anyway, implementing my suggestions would reduce the final damages to 38.5 and 24.5 respectively-120% and 145% increases over the base damage. That's a quite a drop from 225% and 305%- nearly half and over half respectively.

Of course, a 120-145% damage increase is still absolutely ludicrous IMO for spending 3 traits. Therefore, I'd still recommend increasing the effectiveness of shotguns as well to counter. Remember, even without these traits chain weapons were still much more commonly taken than shotguns- and shotguns require three traits, two of which are useless filler, in order to even be usable in the first place. Your call on that though.
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maso

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Re: Nerfing the Chaingun
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2008, 05:56 »

I'd reduce trigger happy to one extra shot per burst.
Accuracy for rapid shot weapons needs reducing too. You only need one level of eagle eye and you have near perfect accuracy.
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Malek Deneith

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Re: Nerfing the Chaingun
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2008, 06:14 »

Quote
Also note that the fact that SoaB damage is armor piercing
Frankly I don't recall that "armor piercing" theory beeing ever confirmed. Did I miss something? O.o

edit I asked Kornel about that and he confirmed what I thought - SoaB is not armor piercing - SoaB get's added before armor reduces damage.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 06:23 by Malek Deneith »
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Zeb

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Re: Nerfing the Chaingun
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2008, 07:04 »

I actually just realized that I made those calculations without armor piercing damage anyway, so it's all good.
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tisiphone

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Re: Nerfing the Chaingun
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2008, 08:52 »

Quote
For example, you could add a warm-up period (0.3-0.4s) before the chaingun starts to fire to demonstrate the barrels accelerating to the right speed.
A little clarification on this: What I mean is there should be a time delay before the chainguns first shot but this should only apply to the first shot. In other words the delay will not apply if you decide shoot again after the first burst but will apply if you move and then shoot. It could add some extra decision making. Do you just fire at the former human that you see or move closer to see if theres anyone behind him that could use being shot at? Do you invest in some Finesse and speed mods to nullify the delay or go for Son of a Bitch? And so on.
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Conker

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Re: Nerfing the Chaingun
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2008, 13:13 »

I'd say half the problem is that shotguns are very distance-orientated. Whereas a Chaingun/Plasma Rifle works at any distance. And in the late game, where you're encountering enemies that can kill you in a couple of turns, you don't want to waste time changing weapons or moving around to get into a better position. The chaingun's nice because you can just stand there and fire without having to worry about reloading or distance.

I honestly think that shotguns still do need to be empowered - to be even remotely competitive in the late game, you'd need Reloader, Reloader, Shottyman, Hellrunner * 3, and an advanced double shotgun. Even then, if you open a door and find 3 viles just on the edge of your sight range, you're screwed if you can't lure them to you. Perhaps a shotgun variant should be introduced that doesn't decrease its damage over distance?

To be fair though, Chainguns should be nerfed - slightly. I'd say cap TH at one level. This would probably work well to increase trait variety, too.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 08:41 by Conker »
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modular

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Re: Nerfing the Chaingun
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2008, 16:13 »

I like the fact that with SoB2 and TH I can survive the arena on a higher difficulty level. Its really fun to see the game scale up at that point in the game.

Maybe its more interesting to limit TH to just one trait rather than reducing its bonus by half, in addition to lowering the base damage of a chaingun by 1, or lowering its accuracy.

Shotguns and what traits to choose:

Rel->Rel->SM->
Reload speed -40%, reload on move.
Overall very expensive traits. Shottyman allows you to dodge and shoot, but that tactic is not effective against sergeants, AV's, and to many barons/knights/cacodemon. The range of the double shotgun is not so good. Its also very dangerous to use when there are to many barrels around.
Problem with these traits is that they are exclusively usefull for shotguns (and possibly rocket launchers), but there are alot of situations where using a shotgun is sub-optimal.
I suggest at least removing the requirement to take Rel2 so you can take Rel(1)->SM.

Fin->Fin->Wiz
To pimp an advanced shotgun you need another 3 traits. Most characters are lvl 9 when they finish the game, so you can only pick 2x3 traits that you will use during the last 1/3th of the game. The fire speed bonus isnt going to help as much as it would with a chaingun, so this is a rather expensive combo. This combo is flexible and can also be usefull for other weapons.

HR->HR->HR->
+30% speed, +30% dodge chance. Compared to the other defensive traits, HP+66%, or armour+75%, this is rather weak. This combo 'could' be good with SM, but the bonus to speed would have to be increase significantly.
I would suggest at least doubling the movement speed bonus to +20 speed each trait for a total of +60% speed. Increasing the speed bonus might make melee games more enjoyable also.

Fin->Jug->
There is the possibility of altering the Jugler trait, so you can also swap weapons at no action cost in addition to automaticly using a prepared melee weapon. This might make shotguns more usefull to use combined with chainguns, but would also be very usefull to use with other weapons like rocket launchers, plasma rifle, BFG.

Shotguns are overall pretty weak, bad range, bad damage, bad traits, and hard to find in-game. My last test game on hard took me till lvl 6 to find anything better than a normal shotgun. Another testgame I found a double shotun on lvl 2, but there is always a chaingun on lvl 2 or 3 on hard.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 16:45 by modular »
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007bistromath

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Re: Nerfing the Chaingun
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2008, 02:30 »

Aside from the fact that TH is overpowered, it annoys me because there is a fractional number of shots per magazine once it's on. What I would do is increase the standard CG mag size to 70, then limit TH to one level.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 02:32 by 007bistromath »
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Blade

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Re: Nerfing the Chaingun
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2008, 12:39 »

Chaingun's accuracy should be lowered(to make EE*2 at least somehow useful). And imho every monster's and every weapon's accuracy should be lowered too...

But anyway, chaingun itself isn't overpowered, so nothing but accuracy should be changed. Overpowered are traits. And here another problem arises, what is "TOO MUCH" for NTR, is "just what is required for surviving on UV". We can lower exp multiplier for lower difficulties, to 1.2(if now it's 1.4) for ITYTD, and 1.1 for HMP. About traits - limit TH to one-level trait. Or make it add only 1 additional shot per burst.

HR->HR->HR->
+30% speed, +30% dodge chance. Compared to the other defensive traits, HP+66%, or armour+75%, this is rather weak. This combo 'could' be good with SM, but the bonus to speed would have to be increase significantly.
I would suggest at least doubling the movement speed bonus to +20 speed each trait for a total of +60% speed. Increasing the speed bonus might make melee games more enjoyable also.

Agreed. It's now really less useful that other 2 defensive traits(IM and TaN). But not +20% speed per level, but +15% speed and +15% dodge.

Fin->Jug->
There is the possibility of altering the Jugler trait, so you can also swap weapons at no action cost in addition to automaticly using a prepared melee weapon. This might make shotguns more usefull to use combined with chainguns, but would also be very usefull to use with other weapons like rocket launchers, plasma rifle, BFG.

Agreed.
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007bistromath

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Re: Nerfing the Chaingun
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2008, 14:54 »

Amen to that. I really hate the new Juggler.
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Chamber

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Re: Nerfing the Chaingun
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2008, 05:32 »

I don't think that the chaingun is too powerful.  It is more convenient to use than the shotgun family, however.  The shotgun is a niche weapon, that performs best against numerous enemies that are close to each other.  It's also satisfying and doomish.

The chaingun, on the other hand, requires least planning to use successfully, and most traits benefit it directly, while also being good for the plasma rifle, making the chaingun a good way of 'training' for the plasma rifle.

It would be acceptable to lower the chaingun's bullet damage or increase its fire time.  Alternatively, instead of one fire action, there could be 5 faster consecutive fire actions, making it possible for an enemy to fire its guns before it is overcome by player bullets.

I think that there should be a challenge mode that only allows the use of shotguns, combat shotguns and double barreled shotguns.  This would be incentive for resourceful players to formulate stratagies to overcome the shotgun's weaknesses.

It is true that there are no good specialisted traits for shotguns.  Reloading is appealing to all weapons.  SM is mostly useless.  Usually I don't want to move and reload.  I just want to reload, the faster the better.  Perhaps this trait could be enhanced by giving the ability to increase a shotgun's effective range by modifying it with a magazine upgrade?  What other proposed upgrades would be good for shotgun users?

And please don't weaken the TH trait.  It's a visceral and thrilling way to accentuate the feeling of launching thousands of bullets at the enemy.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 05:34 by Chamber »
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Malek Deneith

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Re: Nerfing the Chaingun
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2008, 05:42 »

Quote
SM is mostly useless.  Usually I don't want to move and reload.  I just want to reload, the faster the better.
Wrong. You DO wan't to move and reload as this:
a)increases dodge chance
b)combined move + reload is performed at move speed, which means that it'll be usually faster than just raloding
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