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Author Topic: NO save challenge mode.  (Read 7652 times)

Daqin

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NO save challenge mode.
« on: January 28, 2008, 01:50 »

I don't know if this idea already came up, but I'd like option in game to play just like normal game without a save option. This would guarantee character was not save-backed and restored in case of death.
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Potman

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Re: NO save challenge mode.
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2008, 02:34 »

Your saves will vanish anyway in case of death: All this challenge would prevent is to save game and carry on later in case you're gonna have to stop before you're done, which is incredibly inconvenient.
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Malek Deneith

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Re: NO save challenge mode.
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2008, 03:47 »

Not to mention there is such "challenge" - it's cleverly hidden as Nightmare! ;P
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Inquisition - saving your soul, one bolter shell at a time.
Spoiler: "Hackmaster Kills" (click to show/hide)

Daqin

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Re: NO save challenge mode.
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2008, 05:42 »

You can back up your save before it vanishes. But if such option is already there..then nevermind.
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Potman

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Re: NO save challenge mode.
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2008, 09:25 »

You can back up your save before it vanishes.

Yes, and that's called savescumming. Making a challenge where only cheating is prevented is, well, kinda silly.
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Daqin

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Re: NO save challenge mode.
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2008, 09:39 »

You can back up your save before it vanishes.

Yes, and that's called savescumming. Making a challenge where only cheating is prevented is, well, kinda silly.

Whatever the name someone gave to it, I can give it new one, but it doesn't matter.
If, just like you said, it is the only cheating, then why making one mode where it is prevented, is, in your opinion, silly ?
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DaEezT

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Re: NO save challenge mode.
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2008, 12:18 »

Whatever the name someone gave to it, I can give it new one, but it doesn't matter.
If, just like you said, it is the only cheating, then why making one mode where it is prevented, is, in your opinion, silly ?

1. The term savescumming has been around as long as RLs have been around which is over two decades if memory serves.
2. Games are supposed to be played without cheating in the first place so adding a challenge that consists of playing the game without cheating is utterly stupid.
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"Morality is merely a convention with which men mutually agree to delude themselves. There are no moral facts, just preferences, and one is no better than any other."

Potman

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Re: NO save challenge mode.
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2008, 12:40 »

2. Games are supposed to be played without cheating in the first place so adding a challenge that consists of playing the game without cheating is utterly stupid.

Especially when, if I may add, cheating is still possible in any other kind of game.
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Daqin

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Re: NO save challenge mode.
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2008, 01:32 »

1. I said nothing about if it was for long or short. That doesn't matter too, especially if it is not used by everyone. You don't believe it came from the God and people followed, do you ? What usually happens is someone says something, other people think it is the term, and wise, and repeat that. Long or short doesn't change the origin. And if you like to speak about stupid things so much, then I'd rather repeating things this way find silly. And people may, and do, call it by many different names, so again, I would say it is silly to make announcements that something is called by certain name, making yourself look bit naive by revealing your belief in the fixed meaning of the words.

2. If you call cheating prevention uterelly stupid just because the game was supposed to be played without cheating, then how stupid is your belief that all players will actually follow that just because 'it is supposed' ?
Having forum and mortem posting, it would make certain that mortems from this challenge were without cheating. Or again, maybe you believe all people don't cheat, because they are not supposed too ?
Besides, adding such option would add different kind of challenge, because you would have to play it almost without leaving the computer (like in AlienRL without save), straight from begining to the end, a little longer DoomRL adventure.
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Potman

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Re: NO save challenge mode.
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2008, 04:36 »

2. If you call cheating prevention uterelly stupid just because the game was supposed to be played without cheating, then how stupid is your belief that all players will actually follow that just because 'it is supposed' ?
Having forum and mortem posting, it would make certain that mortems from this challenge were without cheating. Or again, maybe you believe all people don't cheat, because they are not supposed too ?

We're not thinking that all players play that way. We're not saying that all mortems are made without cheating. You're missing the entire point here. Because your argument is not "I think we should prevent cheating". It's "I think we should make a challenge that prevent cheating, thus conveniently allow the cheaters not to choose it and non-cheaters just ignore it". It's what I call stupid and pointless.

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Besides, adding such option would add different kind of challenge, because you would have to play it almost without leaving the computer (like in AlienRL without save), straight from begining to the end, a little longer DoomRL adventure.

And what'd be the point of that? Already the sole reason non-cheaters save their games is to have a break on the computer. Maybe they'll need to save because they have something more important to do. And what do you think will happen when this option is removed? They can't just take a break anymore. If it's something really important, their only option will be to commit suicide, possibly bringing a promising game to stupid end. Or if it's just something slightly less important, such as going fishing with your son, you'll just go "Hang on, I'll just play this game first" and gain reputation as a father who puts his stupid video game before spending quality time with his kid.
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Daqin

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Re: NO save challenge mode.
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2008, 04:53 »

We're not thinking that all players play that way. We're not saying that all mortems are made without cheating. You're missing the entire point here. Because your argument is not "I think we should prevent cheating". It's "I think we should make a challenge that prevent cheating, thus conveniently allow the cheaters not to choose it and non-cheaters just ignore it". It's what I call stupid and pointless.

Actually, you are missing the entire point. Your explanation partly reveals the point. Also, instead calling it stupid and seeking arguments against it, try to find benefits, if you can.. To tell you some more, cheaters would chose it to prove they are not cheaters. While non-cheaters would chose it to show they are not these. This is just example.

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Maybe they'll need to save because they have something more important to do. And what do you think will happen when this option is removed? They can't just take a break anymore. If it's something really important, their only option will be to commit suicide, possibly bringing a promising game to stupid end. Or if it's just something slightly less important, such as going fishing with your son, you'll just go "Hang on, I'll just play this game first" and gain reputation as a father who puts his stupid video game before spending quality time with his kid.
Well, you could compare this mode to going to cinema: you have some special experience and you can't just save/pause and come back later to continue. Either you stay and watch to the end, or you leave.
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chalup

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Re: NO save challenge mode.
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2008, 05:23 »

Let's get this straight: you want some way to tell if person posting a mortem on the forum cheated by backuping the save (which is called savescumming, wheater you like it or not)?
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Malek Deneith

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Re: NO save challenge mode.
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2008, 05:41 »

Considering that mortem can be edited I could play such "challenge" once and then just copy-paste the line that is supposed to show a no-save game. So much for cheating prevention.
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Inquisition - saving your soul, one bolter shell at a time.
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chalup

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Re: NO save challenge mode.
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2008, 05:55 »

Considering that mortem can be edited I could play such "challenge" once and then just copy-paste the line that is supposed to show a no-save game. So much for cheating prevention.
That would be my next point to show that this is stupid idea.

You want anti-cheat system? So let's do it the right way!

First of all, Kornel would have to add the save counter to the mortem. For example in ADOM (great rougelike btw) you get the entry "He saved the world while saving himself xxx times" or something like that.

Don't forget that the game still crashes occasionally and FORCES the save. So the "cheatproof" entry in the mortem will appear only if you are lucky and the DoomRL doesn't crash.

This of course would not prevent the easiest way to cheat - fabricating mortems. So we need additional measure of security, for example appending to the end of the mortem the hash of its contents (hash = small number generated from the large data). Then Kornel would have to create some kind of mortem validator, so we would be able to check if the mortem wasn't edited.

Doesn't it all sound ridiculous already?

Dude, you have to ask yourself two questions: why do I really think this feature is needed? Why do I read and post the mortems on the forum?

Isn't it easier just to trust people (maybe I'm too naive)? And if someone posts fake mortems to seek attention, do you really care? Honestly I'd feel rather sorry for that person. Wouldn't you?
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Aerton

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Re: NO save challenge mode.
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2008, 06:03 »

The game is supposed to be played this way all the time. It would be ridiculously easy otherwise. It will effectively legalise savescumming in all other modes. If some anti-cheat scheme is to be deployed, it should in not be confused with gameplay mechanisms.

Previously, the game could be played without ever using the save key, but now it became a bit too long for that.

Let's get this straight: you want some way to tell if person posting a mortem on the forum cheated by backuping the save (which is called savescumming, wheater you like it or not)?
You know, you don't even have to download the game for that. Copy&Paste FTW!
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