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Author Topic: Ideas from obscure yet official Doom sources  (Read 9271 times)

Almafeta

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Ideas from obscure yet official Doom sources
« on: January 11, 2006, 15:36 »

Someone might as well summarize these, to keep them from being brought up so often...  Bewarned, I gleaned these from online descritpions, some may be wrong.

From Doom 64:

*Arachnotrons were upgraded, having twin plasma rifles instead of a chaingun.  (A doomrl 'Arachnotron Mark II'?)
*Pain Elementals shot two Lost Souls at once.  (A doomrl 'agony elemental' after the 'pain elemental' is implemented?)
*Rottweilers.  Undead, demonic dogs; they are to pinky demons what pistol soldiers are to chaingunners.
*The Unmaker.  The damage done by this weapon varies based on how 'demonic' the target is; former humans take little damage, normal demons (the lost soul, the demon, the knight and baron) take full damage, partially robotic demons (the Cyberdemon and Arachnotron) take mild damage.  Powered by corpses of humans.

From Doom RPG:
*Hellhounds:  basically rottweilers, but could be tamed.

From Doom II (I think?):
*Commander Keen
*Dopefish
*Nazi zombies:  Apparently, there's a special place in Hell for Nazis.

From Doom Bible (original design document of Doom):
*BFG 2704 (40-shot plasma rifle with spread of shotgun)
*Chaos Field:  Temporary powerup; monsters in immediate area attack anything in sight, including each other.
*Deflector shield:  Deflects slow moving physical missiles (grenades and rockets), useless versus energy blasts, bullets, and claws.
*Energy fields:  Additional armor that only works versus energy weapons (and flame effects).
*Grenade launcher.  Apparently the design was used as the 'grenade pistol' in Q3A.
*Infrared Goggles (you can see 'heat signatures' through walls -- i.e., non-zombie demons).  Possibly implement a 'goggles' equipment slot?
*Interestingly, armor in the beta Doom worked like in DoomRL :D
*Shockshield:  Temporary powerup; improved defense versus energy damage, creatures in melee range take 'environmental' damage.  Possibly implement a 'shield/accessory' equipment slot?


From Doom 3:
*Air canister:  Some areas have toxic air...
*Chainsaw zombies: 3-5x as tough as a normal zombie, do about 33% more damage than a normal zombie, but melee only.
*Flaming zombies:  Zombies that deal area-effect damage and can start you on fire.
*Grenades:  No launchers, used like normal.
*Health station:  If undamaged, can be used an unlimited number of times to heal, up to normal health.  (In DoomRL, would be reward of a special level?)
*Maggot:  Like pinkies, but with a leap attack.
*Security bot:  Defends the player, but only while they stay on track.
*Soul cube:  Vampiric weapon.  However, each soulcube 'shot' requires five souls looted from human corpses to fire, and it can only store one shot at a time.
*Trite:  Demonic spiders whose main body is a human head.  In Doom 3, climbs on walls and ceilings; in DoomRL, might be hard to implement.  'Ticks' are like Trites but smaller, faster, and harder to hit.
*Wraith:  Imps with teleportation.  Teleportation is random, so sometimes they teleport right in front of you, but if they teleport to where they can snipe you with fireballs, they will.
*Zombies pick up weapons of opprotunity.

From Original Doom:
*Keycards (please don't hurt me)
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2006, 19:23 »

I WOULD REALY LIKE PEOPLE TO COMMENT ON THIS TOPIC.

Quoting: Almafeta
*Arachnotrons were upgraded, having twin plasma rifles instead of a chaingun. (A doomrl 'Arachnotron Mark II'?)

Arachnotrons in DoomRL have a rapid-fire plasma-rifle.

Quoting: Almafeta
*Pain Elementals shot two Lost Souls at once. (A doomrl 'agony elemental' after the 'pain elemental' is implemented?)
*Rottweilers. Undead, demonic dogs; they are to pinky demons what pistol soldiers are to chaingunners.

Hmm, I don't know, but Barons do have two "power levels", former humans have four. So maybe one day I'll add more powerful versions of the Imp, Demon and maybe others.

Quoting: Almafeta
*The Unmaker.

Quoting: Almafeta
*Soul cube: Vampiric weapon. However, each soulcube 'shot' requires five souls looted from human corpses to fire, and it can only store one shot at a time.

No ^_^. I'd like to keep the DoomRL arsenal fairly realistic.

Quoting: Almafeta
*Commander Keen
*Dopefish
*Nazi zombies: Apparently, there's a special place in Hell for Nazis.

Oh no...

Quoting: Almafeta
*BFG 2704 (40-shot plasma rifle with spread of shotgun)

That would be confusing. And there isn't any strategic element to it.

Quoting: Almafeta
*Chaos Field: Temporary powerup; monsters in immediate area attack anything in sight, including each other.

Would be silly, IMHO.

Quoting: Almafeta
*Deflector shield: Deflects slow moving physical missiles (grenades and rockets), useless versus energy blasts, bullets, and claws.

Quoting: Almafeta
*Shockshield: Temporary powerup; improved defense versus energy damage, creatures in melee range take 'environmental' damage. Possibly implement a 'shield/accessory' equipment slot?

Too powerful to be a simple item. Maybe as a energy cell-powered armor, but that on the other hand might be too complex.
Quoting: Almafeta
*Energy fields: Additional armor that only works versus energy weapons (and flame effects).

Quote from: Almafeta
*Infrared Goggles (you can see 'heat signatures' through walls -- i.e., non-zombie demons). Possibly implement a 'goggles' equipment slot?

That would be the head slot. Might happen once I redesign the DoomRL vision system.

Quoting: Almafeta
*Interestingly, armor in the beta Doom worked like in DoomRL :D

It's NOT a coincidence ;-). I've read the Doom Bible too ;-D.

Quoting: Almafeta
*Air canister: Some areas have toxic air...

Imagine that in ASCII O.o

Quoting: Almafeta
*Chainsaw zombies: 3-5x as tough as a normal zombie, do about 33% more damage than a normal zombie, but melee only.

No, slow melee foes would serve just as cannon fodder.

Quoting: Almafeta
*Flaming zombies: Zombies that deal area-effect damage and can start you on fire.

Would need a flamer weapon to accompany that. But... who knows.

Quoting: Almafeta
*Health station: If undamaged, can be used an unlimited number of times to heal, up to normal health. (In DoomRL, would be reward of a special level?)

Useless, because in DoomRL you can't come back to a level ;-).

Quoting: Almafeta
*Grenades: No launchers, used like normal.

We had this discussion, and people generaly dislike the idea.

Quoting: Almafeta
*Security bot: Defends the player, but only while they stay on track.

Too high-tech, and non-doomish IMHO ;-).

Quoting: Almafeta
*Zombies pick up weapons of opprotunity.

This can be toggled by substituting just one variable in the source, but I guess that would be too hard on the player.

Quoting: Almafeta
From Original Doom:
*Keycards (please don't hurt me)

*Pulls out a combat shotgun from behind his back*
*BANG* *BANG* *BANG*
;-)
Seriously -- maybe yes, but only as a way to access vaults on levels.

P.S. Pleeeese send me this new CGM scan... pretty pleeeesee :-D
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2006, 23:19 »

In DoomII the "Nazi Zombies" are just the guys who yell "Gestapo" from Wolf3D..

They get the honor of being the cyberdemons guards (Seriously)

And there are four copies of Keen hanging from the hangmans rope around the entrance to hell, They have roughly the same HP as say a F-Human Captain but all they do is twitch like a spider on a hot oven. One can only hope that when you kill them they go to a better place (Unles of course you pulled the lever in Keen II - Invasion of the Vorticons).

Fun.

--

I am all for a Health Station in DoomRL, It worked great in DoomIII where after you go through a particulary tough part of level they can be a real saving grace. For those of you who dont know how they work:

Each station has some Charges, Each charge equates to 1% of health, Charges are administered in doses of 10 and most stations start with 100 of them.

Anyhoo, I reckon they would be a great addition, I see some ways to put them in:

A. Health stations are added as say..a light red *. One goes on top of one and presses the "u" key as if a lever. From then on in we can descide how the charges work.

    A.1 - In the same way as DoomIII - See the above.
   
    A.2 - As a weaker version of the minor health globe, Except it can be
            used multiple times.

    A.3 - Same as the above except fewer charges and regerating

B. We dont add them.

 
As a side note I think they should ALWAYS be right next to a wall.

--

I was going to finish writing it all but I dont have time so I will write the rest later.
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asdfff

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Ideas from obscure yet official Doom sources
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2006, 06:12 »

Kornel, if you're shooting for offical-source Doom additions, may I suggest replacing 'bare hands' with '[steel?] knuckles' and 'combat knife' with 'fire axe'. DoomRPG also brings with it some new enemies, like the 1st poster said, the Wolf3D doggies 'hellhounds'. Their site, doomrpg.com also has names and color schemes to go with all the enemies, new, old and retconned.

If you want a larger enemy set I would just say incorporate anything you missed from Doom 1 and 2...maaaybe excluding the Id easter eggs (keen,dopefish,nazis)

It sounds like you're not really into the Doom3 and Doom bible ideas at all...which is understandable, both are fairly far removed from Doom and Doom2.
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Almafeta

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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2006, 06:42 »

Crud...  I can't edit my original post any longer.  :/
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Almafeta

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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2006, 07:10 »

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
*Chaos Field: Temporary powerup; monsters in immediate area attack anything in sight, including each other.


Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
No ^_^. I'd like to keep the DoomRL arsenal fairly realistic.


Aaaw...  at least one 'demonic/magical' weapon or powerup would be nice; you're in freaking Hell!  But that's alright; it keeps with the Christian allegory of the original (to defeat evil, you cannot use evil's methods, even if they are 'weaker).

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
Too powerful to be a simple item. Maybe as a energy cell-powered armor, but that on the other hand might be too complex.


Well, compare it to other powerups:  Invulnerability (you can use the 'look' command to circumvent its sole downside), Soulsphere (no downside), Berzerker Pack (negligible downside).  The armor only works against an uncommon attack type, and the 'electric shock' effect only works in melee...  I'd compare it to a Berzerker Pack in usefulness.

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
Imagine that in ASCII O.o


Simple:  grey period.  You can't tell that room's toxic until you start chooking.  ^_^

Speaking of ASCII, we need something like the 'diases'...  walls that have gaps wide enough to shoot through, but not crawl or walk through.

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
No, slow melee foes would serve just as cannon fodder.


Except in city-type levels, where you don't get to play the Catseye trick ^_^  Besides, the 'Chained Court' would be fun if you didn't *start* with a chainsaw, you had to take it from one of the corpses of the circle of chainsaw-armed zombies that was slowly circling in on you...

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
That would be the head slot. Might happen once I redesign the DoomRL vision system.


Nifty.  :>

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
That would be confusing. And there isn't any strategic element to it.


What do you mean, 'no strategic element'?
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Malek Deneith

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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2006, 09:18 »

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
Imagine that in ASCII O.o

Thats fairly easy - just make the floor (light) green in rooms with poison air :P
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« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2006, 23:05 »

I?ve got surprised nobody mentioned the invisibility power-up yet.

IMHO the player would be printed in a dark color, might go undetected past monster if not shooting.
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Anonymous

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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2006, 23:50 »

partial invisibility :)
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jake250

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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2006, 04:53 »

Yeah invisibility sound nice.
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Aerton

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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2006, 06:46 »

Invisibility does not let you go unnoticed, it just makes monsters miss a lot.
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Almafeta

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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2006, 19:06 »

IIRC, how it works in Doom 1 is that it makes monster's shots go a randomly determined number of degrees off-course.

In DoomRL, a 'partial invisiblity' would probably work by making a monster aim at either the marine's square or any of eight squares around him.
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jake250

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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2006, 22:27 »

Quoting: Almafeta
In DoomRL, a 'partial invisiblity' would probably work by making a monster aim at either the marine's square or any of eight squares around him.

So it would be an invincibility with some change of being hurt? IMO it won't make a difference for me to choose between invincibility and invisibility, one or the other I wouldn't care. Invisibility should have an additional use, like passing close to ennemy without being noticed, at least it would make it different and tactically better than the invincibility.
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Aerton

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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2006, 15:08 »

Deviation was not so great so they could not hit you when not too far away, and IIRC they were missing you less if you were standing still.

This behavour would be best modelled by an accuracy penalty that increases with range to target and, perhaps, also increasing penalty of moving target.
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sn0rb

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« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2006, 20:38 »

Long-time lurker, first time poster (^^;

Anyway, Doom 3 had some nice ideas- the assault rifle was a good alternative to the chaingun, for instance. (Dunno how it would implement, tho.)

I think grenades might also work- not as a hotkeyed weapon, but perhaps as a one-time use item, similar to stimpacks, medkits, and phase devices. This way, the player wouldn't have to cycle between a gun and the grenades every time he wanted to use one.

I'm not too sure about the flashlight, though- Kornel said he's redesigning the vision system, and I don't know what that would entail. (Besides, there's already two melee weapons- Fists and the chainsaw.)

The classic Blur Artifact would be a great addition- the problem is, like the assault rifle, how to implement it, if at all?

EDIT: The SS Nazis mentioned previously were used in MAP31 [Wolfenstein] and MAP32 [Grosse] of Doom 2. They did indeed serve as the guardians for the Cyberdemon in MAP32. Commander Keen was also in MAP32, as the triggers to open the portal to MAP15 [Suburbs]. A secret level based on E1M1 of Wolfenstein would be nice =p

One more request- what about the Spiderdemon (not Arachnotrons- the big spider with the super chaingun.)? Could she be implemented as a secret boss fight?
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2006, 23:10 »

Quoting: sn0rb
Long-time lurker, first time poster (^^;

Welcome ^_^

Quoting: sn0rb
the assault rifle was a good alternative to the chaingun

An assault rifle would have it's place in DoomRL if it were to have a tactical explanation. The Combat Shotgun made it into the game because it had a cool tactical value. If somebody would propose something equally cool for a Assault Rifle then I would consider it.

Quoting: sn0rb
I think grenades might also work

Nah, throwing stuff is kind'a undoomish for me ;-). But the one-use idea is the best proposed yet...

The spiderdemon will be in once I upgrade the plot ;-)
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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2006, 01:44 »

Quoting: Almafeta
From Doom 64:

*Arachnotrons were upgraded, having twin plasma rifles instead of a chaingun. (A doomrl 'Arachnotron Mark II'?)


I'll make this clearer. The Doom 64 Arachnotron had dual plasma guns, both at the front. However, unlike the original Doom Arachnotron, it fired in 8 round bursts (4 from each gun) instead of full auto fire.


*Rottweilers. Undead, demonic dogs; they are to pinky demons what pistol soldiers are to chaingunners.


I didn't see this in Doom64 at all. :\


*The Unmaker. The damage done by this weapon varies based on how 'demonic' the target is; former humans take little damage, normal demons (the lost soul, the demon, the knight and baron) take full damage, partially robotic demons (the Cyberdemon and Arachnotron) take mild damage. Powered by corpses of humans.


This is the Doom bible version. The Doom 64 version was just a laser gun powered up by demonic keys.
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« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2006, 16:34 »

Quoting: Almafeta
*Air canister: Some areas have toxic air...

Imagine that in ASCII O.o

Actually, that should be rather easy to do. Unless you want to do only genuinely original code you could simply look at Angband, or any roguelike featuring damage-over-time area effect spells. Noxious Cloud from ToME is a nice example of this.
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