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[Daqin]

Well, I may post too many this kind of ideas, but what the hell..

I have this idea of Thief or Assassin RL which is primary focused on stealth, staying out of sight and deception. Emphasis put on -get to your target to attack first (backstab, ambush etc). Game could include mob's direction of sight, so you could maneuver and time movements to pass without being noticed and light system to take into account tactics for moving through dark or bright areas. Many tricks with equipment for distraction, disabling, enhancement, camouflage, probing rooms, also poisons, professional elixirs, etc.

[Daqin]

In more detailed way;
-Stealth could be composed of 2 factors: 1-being not seen and 2-being not heard. Both affected by skill, equipment and other factors, like light or distance to target, ground, speed of movement or even shoes.
- after losing stealth it could be possible to enter stealth mode again by moving out of sight and dark place, by using some flash/smoke bomb (like ninja) etc.
- opening locks, disable mechanisms and traps, trap detection.. setting traps, whole thief skills would play big part of the game and traps could be real pain in the *ss.

Generally, one screen could be like a chess, lots of tactics what to do, where to move, what to start with etc.

-alchemy stuff, not only as general help like in most of the games, but also major part of the game and tactics, which could include night-vision enhancement elixirs, poisons (not only deadly but also to affect target in certain way..like, heh, make him seek toilet, feel drunk, etc, without arousing suspicion), hearing enhancement (so you could get hear presence from some direction from greater distance or be aware that someone is coming), or thrown elixir which on impact relasess gas that reacts with oxygen and puts off torches' light in the close area.

-mechanical and other devices, like sound decoy that will make noise after some time, probing mirrors to look in to places before entering, other sound distraction things other than thrown item, eye gear, stealth clothes that absorb light, and other things that you could wear to look like commoner and don't get attention (if stay at distance).

-weapons, beside daggers and swords, also blowing tubes to apply poisons (chance of not getting attention), hand crossbows to apply poisons and damage, stun batons, other

Game itself could be placed in anywhere, from wide RP to single missions for money.

[Aerton]

A good stealth game require much better world resolution than RL provide. The 3-rd coordinate and object volumes play a very important role. If you stay behind a fence, you are visible to someone on the other side, if you lay down, he will not see you. But, if he will climb to a higher elevation, he will be able to see you again. An apple tree may be sufficiently high, but it's simply too thin to cover your body. Them again, in the nighttime shadows from its leaves may provide enough of concealment. While full 3D freedom on a level of modern FPSes isn't necessary, at least XCOM or JA2 pseudo-3D level is a must. RL's aren't very well suited for a game, when you need to see opponents' direction and state (stand/crouch/lay) all the time. Such a game should provide a lot of miscellaneous scenery objects to hide behind (a stealth game in a dungeon with bare walls doesn't sound exciting), quite opposite to a common RL concept.

Good timing is also an important factor: you can only cover that unavoidable open ground for a brief moment when nobody is looking there.

An RL can successfully implement some stealth as a part of gameplay, complemented by other aspects, but to have it as a core element will make it feel shallow compared to 3D real-time stealth games.

[Daqin]

A good stealth game require much better world resolution than RL provide. The 3-rd coordinate and object volumes play a very important role. If you stay behind a fence, you are visible to someone on the other side, if you lay down, he will not see you. But, if he will climb to a higher elevation, he will be able to see you again. An apple tree may be sufficiently high, but it's simply too thin to cover your body. Them again, in the nighttime shadows from its leaves may provide enough of concealment.

You just gave good example of what I think stealth could be based on. However I believe it could still work in RL environment simplified to most crucial factors that can be simulated in 2d mode. You don't really need 3rd coordinate, just cover factor of things in sight in comparison to character or something like that. If something between target and character has cover factor higher than character being-prone factor, he is not seen. This also affected by awareness of target, your camouflage etc.

While full 3D freedom on a level of modern FPSes isn't necessary, at least XCOM or JA2 pseudo-3D level is a must. RL's aren't very well suited for a game, when you need to see opponents' direction and state (stand/crouch/lay) all the time.

Yeah it seems so, but actually pseudo 3D is not necessary if you don't make high elevations which is not really needed in RL. I think stand/crouch/lay all the time could also be helped with auto stealth mode that would put character into required stealthy enough to keep him not detected mode automatically while moving through guarded areas.
Anyway, crouching, ducking or standing all the time would  not require more effort than in any other game.

Such a game should provide a lot of miscellaneous scenery objects to hide behind (a stealth game in a dungeon with bare walls doesn't sound exciting), quite opposite to a common RL concept.

Yes, more object would give more tactical play and also make it little up for atmosphere (if you could also inspect/search those objects, move etc.)
Well, whatever common RL concept is, it doesn't exist. Does it ?

Good timing is also an important factor: you can only cover that unavoidable open ground for a brief moment when nobody is looking there.

Exactly.

An RL can successfully implement some stealth as a part of gameplay, complemented by other aspects, but to have it as a core element will make it feel shallow compared to 3D real-time stealth games.

If you want to compare it to 3D games,it will appear shallow. If you make new, RL like stealth, and compare 3D games to it, they will appear different.
What I mean, it is not necessary to try simulate everything to come up with detailed system. I think it is enough if you focus on playability and most obvious aspects.

[Aerton]

You just gave good example of what I think stealth could be based on. However I believe it could still work in RL environment simplified to most crucial factors that can be simulated in 2d mode. You don't really need 3rd coordinate, just cover factor of things in sight in comparison to character or something like that. If something between target and character has cover factor higher than character being-prone factor, he is not seen.

Code: [Select]

.....#O#
.....#.#
######.#
.......#
.....&&#
......@#
Does the trash can (&) has a good enough cover factor? How to check that? If not, will the crouching help to hide once the O will look at that direction? BTW, where does he look now?

Yeah it seems so, but actually pseudo 3D is not necessary if you don't make high elevations which is not really needed in RL.

In the above example, if O will come next to &, he will see the crouching @. 3-rd coordinate is required for that. No high-level elevations used.

Anyway, crouching, ducking or standing all the time would  not require more effort than in any other game.

In other RLs it doesn't take any effort because there are no such modes.

Such a game should provide a lot of miscellaneous scenery objects to hide behind (a stealth game in a dungeon with bare walls doesn't sound exciting), quite opposite to a common RL concept.

Yes, more object would give more tactical play and also make it little up for atmosphere (if you could also inspect/search those objects, move etc.)

Atmosphere aside, there has to be something to hide behind.

Well, whatever common RL concept is, it doesn't exist. Does it ?

To be somewhat like rogue?

Good timing is also an important factor: you can only cover that unavoidable open ground for a brief moment when nobody is looking there.

Exactly.

But in a turn-based game?

If you want to compare it to 3D games,it will appear shallow. If you make new, RL like stealth, and compare 3D games to it, they will appear different.

Then why work on something apriori inferior?

What I mean, it is not necessary to try simulate everything to come up with detailed system. I think it is enough if you focus on playability and most obvious aspects.

I'm only talking about the most obvious aspects. Gas elexirs and probing mirrors are detailed system.

[Daqin]

You just gave good example of what I think stealth could be based on. However I believe it could still work in RL environment simplified to most crucial factors that can be simulated in 2d mode. You don't really need 3rd coordinate, just cover factor of things in sight in comparison to character or something like that. If something between target and character has cover factor higher than character being-prone factor, he is not seen.

Code: [Select]

.....#O#
.....#.#
######.#
.......#
.....&&#
......@#
Does the trash can (&) has a good enough cover factor? How to check that? If not, will the crouching help to hide once the O will look at that direction? BTW, where does he look now?

OK. Lets say trash can has cover rating 7. Player in general has cover rating 10 while standing, 6 while crouching and 3 while prone. Lets say O (ogre) has cover rating 16 (he is big). To simplify things we could say that if watcher is higher than obstacle , obstacle gets -1 to cover (higher monster can see better over trash can than smaller one). So if player ducks behind trash can he is not seen by ogre because trash can has more cover (7-1=6). If player crouches behind he is still not seen because cover has enough value to keep him out of sight (6 compared to 6). If player stands up, he is over the trashcan by value of 4 (10-6) which now can be altered by his camouflage skill and factor and compared to ogre's awareness skill and in this case character can be detected (character can still can be heard anyway..). The direction the ogre is now looking could be expressed by lightening a bit area in small cone of his field of view, or whatever idea.

Yeah it seems so, but actually pseudo 3D is not necessary if you don't make high elevations which is not really needed in RL.

In the above example, if O will come next to &, he will see the crouching @. 3-rd coordinate is required for that. No high-level elevations used.

It can be simulated. If space between ogre and trash can is less than value ogre is higher than trash can (16 -7=9) then area behind the trashcan which is same distance or further away loses cover rating equal to difference ogre-trashcan-distance vs area-trashcan-distance , maxed up to ogre-cover-rating vs ogre-trashcan-distance. So, if ogre comes 3 spaces away from trashcan then area behind the trashcan 6 spaces away (ogre/trashcan difference=9 minus distance to trashcan=3) and more loses 6cover rating and it is loses 5 for 5 spaces away, 4 for 4 and so on. If ogre is next to trashcan and is higher than the trashcan then trashcan loses cover value equal to difference ogre-cover/height - trashcan cover. Detailed explanation would take more thought and typing I think.

Anyway, crouching, ducking or standing all the time would  not require more effort than in any other game.

In other RLs it doesn't take any effort because there are no such modes.

I mean any games, not only RL.

Well, whatever common RL concept is, it doesn't exist. Does it ?

To be somewhat like rogue?

Yeah, so to be somewhat like rogue, it has to look kind like rogue. That's all. You don't need to think about concept to say if something has a look of a rogue or not.. :)

Good timing is also an important factor: you can only cover that unavoidable open ground for a brief moment when nobody is looking there.

Exactly.

But in a turn-based game?

Yeah, just look at the ogre and see how often it changes its direction of looking and for how long. Its ruts. Than use that knowledge and sneak past. Unexpected glances are also knowledge, and you could cause unexpected glance with some noise too.

If you want to compare it to 3D games,it will appear shallow. If you make new, RL like stealth, and compare 3D games to it, they will appear different.

Then why work on something apriori inferior?

I mean if you compare 3D games to RL it will look different.
Which is true, because RL is entirely different, so by comparision we can point out differences not what is inferior.

What I mean, it is not necessary to try simulate everything to come up with detailed system. I think it is enough if you focus on playability and most obvious aspects.

I'm only talking about the most obvious aspects. Gas elexirs and probing mirrors are detailed system.

Detailed because of number of little things, not complexity and sophistry of simulation. Such things are easy to do, then why not ?

[Daqin]

Yeah it seems so, but actually pseudo 3D is not necessary if you don't make high elevations which is not really needed in RL.

In the above example, if O will come next to &, he will see the crouching @. 3-rd coordinate is required for that. No high-level elevations used.

I just thought of putting this thing in more simple way.
If ogre is away from trashcan more than [ogre-cover minus trashcan-cover] then trashcan gives cover to area behind normally. However if ogre moves closer to trashcan, say to 9 spaces away (16-7=9) then area behind the trashcan which is 9 spaces away or more loses one from cover granted by trashcan. If ogre comes 6 spaces away from trashcan then area behind the trashcan which is 6 spaces away loses one from cover granted by trashcan, area 7 spaces away loses 2, area 8 spaces away loses 3, and area 9 or more spaces away loses 4. I think you can get what I mean now.

[Sachiko]

Hmm... I have just noticed this topic, and I must say, it promises a lot. I have played the Thief series myself, and I say that the whole 'You must be stealthy, not strong' idea was something I found interesting. An RL of Thief would be an awesome thing, and although it would look like a complex thing to do, I'm sure someone with good coding skills could do it.

You have my support.

[Daqin]

Hmm... I have just noticed this topic, and I must say, it promises a lot. I have played the Thief series myself, and I say that the whole 'You must be stealthy, not strong' idea was something I found interesting. An RL of Thief would be an awesome thing,

Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. I don't give a fuck anymore.

[Sachiko]

It's a pity that you have lost interest. Well, things that happen.