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[Horyon]

To begin with, I apologize for my bad english, this is not my native language.

After reading a few posts, I've noticed a few things about doom rl players.

Some people seem to like rewards. They like the idea that completing a challenge or winning the game on a particular difficulty level unlocks things. But :
1) In the actual game, some experience ranks require to play hours and hours to be achieved and give minor rewards.
2) Some people dislike the fact that they have to complete challenges to unlock difficulty levels. AoB seems to be the most disliked.

So, what could be proposed to make the game (even) more enjoyable ?

Usually, completing a game allows to unlock the following things :
* New characters to play
* New items
* New difficulty levels and challenges
* New levels or new missions
* Cheat codes
* Ranks or medals

Let's look at them.

It's hard to imagine that completing a challenge could unlock an item. Or maybe a very specific one ? A challenge could unlock a new unique item in the sense that it allows this item to spawn. But this idea is dubious as the change wouldn't be easily perceptible and it could be frustrating.

If new characters are unlockable, they must be different from the base character. A fun idea that I've found in a post is to allow the player to play a monster (an imp for example). I honestly can't see any other way of exploiting this idea.

The idea of unlocking new difficulty levels and challenges is IMO a good one. Maybe difficulties and challenges should be separated, because people who like to play challenges are not always those who like to play at higher difficulty levels. So maybe, challenges should only unlock other challenges.

Unlockable cheat codes have already been discussed and many people are against. However, I support the idea of allowing players to cheat once they have completed nightmare for example, but it's not essential.

Ranks and experience levels should probably be preserved as they create an incentive to keep on playing. However, I don't think they should be THAT hard. To begin with, there are many players that do not like to play melee. Therefore, it's a pain to be forced to punch cacodemons just to reach an higher rank. In general, objectives are often set a bit high.

New levels could be an interesting idea. Let me explain.
After completing the main game, the player could be allowed to visit another part of phobos/deimos or whatever, which could be different in terms of :
- Enemies that the player will meet (some enemies may spawn more or less or be absent)
- Special levels and unique items (the main games is a bit "crowded" with unique levels and unique items)
- Lava/acid density
- Rate of spawn of items and weapons
- Goals : why not have the player complete in a limited time, or ask him to find a key object in each level ?
- This would be the perfect place for experiencing new things ! Some specific levels/items/monsters/traits/levers/features that could not fit in the original game could have a place in a campaign.

So, what do you think ?

[Potman]

I think you make very good points, and I'm with you.

[Solarn]

Hmm... this would dramatically increase the replayability of the game. Not that it's all that low now. :P Would require an assload of code, but might be worth it. I'm supporting this idea.

[jake250]

I despise unlockables. Stop taking things away from me just because I don't have time to bother playing. Its even more true with such a game, which I might just download from another computer to waste some time.

Don't get me wrong, new things are nice, but we don't need more unlockables. It personally really gets on my nerve when every things needs to be unlocked, its a fake way of making the game supposedly last longer and I don't buy it. Give me the full experience at first and don't let me waste my time to get it for no reason.

Even the CHALLENGES gets on my nerve because you need to unlock them.

[bfg9001]

I despise unlockables. Stop taking things away from me just because I don't have time to bother playing.

Lol, right on; God forbid you're rewarded for your hard efforts, right?

[Korimyr the Rat]

Lol, right on; God forbid you're rewarded for your hard efforts, right?

I don't necessarily agree with removing unlockable Challenge Modes, but it is a pain in the ass having to play through several Challenges that one has no interest in-- AoP and AoLT come to mind-- in order to unlock the one or two game modes that one is interested in playing through. Easy to understand how someone would get extremely frustrated with it, especially if they're not as obsessive as the typical Roguelike player.

[Luksa]

Well but that's the point.
I can't still get to Ao100, but that doesn't mean I will give up on winning (H)AoI.
If you can't bear the fact you need to do something hard in order to get such a challenge, then you don't enjoy the game as much as others.

[ParaSait]

Really good ideas, man! I 100% agree =)

[Solarn]

I despise unlockables. Stop taking things away from me just because I don't have time to bother playing. Its even more true with such a game, which I might just download from another computer to waste some time.

Don't get me wrong, new things are nice, but we don't need more unlockables. It personally really gets on my nerve when every things needs to be unlocked, its a fake way of making the game supposedly last longer and I don't buy it. Give me the full experience at first and don't let me waste my time to get it for no reason.

Even the CHALLENGES gets on my nerve because you need to unlock them.

Then maybe you shouldn't be playing this game. There are other roguelikes out there without unlockables. There, you don't have to worry about not getting the "full experience" without having played it for a time and you can get everything the moment you start up the game. After all, getting extra stuff you didn't work for is the American way!

[bfg9001]

After all, getting extra stuff you didn't work for is the American way!

Lol, true that.

[sarcasm]
God Bless the welfare system.
[/sarcasm]

:P

[Vestin]

After all, getting extra stuff you didn't work for is the American way!

DOOM:RL is one of the fastest, shortest and simplest roguelikes there are... and that's how it should be.
If it's not broken - don't fix it.

You know what ? Let's make unlockables optional. Just IMAGINE they already are in the game and don't use certain things until you think you "achieved" them ;P.

[rekenne]

Wow. Uh. Lot of condescension going on in here.
Really, I agree with the idea of making things not unlockable - I've been playing this game for 3+ years, but I've only beaten the game a handful of times. Playing the base game so many times has gotten a bit on the stale side, despite how much the game has changed over the years.
I've been doing some of the challenge ideas since long before they were official. I've loved the idea of a pistol only game, just because it plays so differently, etc. Some of the challenges just bore me, as compared to making the game more fun. I play the game for the challenge, sure, and really felt accomplished when I beat AoMr for my first time. Still, though, I ended up just replacing my Player File with Blade's, when he posted it a couple of weeks ago and have been having a blast with Ao100. Challenge, sure, but fun is more important.

[RepoRipper]

if ur bored with standard DoomRL, and your an obsessive Rougelike lover like me, go rustle up T.O.M.E.
if u get bored with T.O.M.E. .................. nothing will EVER satisfy you! as for unlockable levels.... campaigns.... definetly! i had the original idea for having doomguy accept the offer hell makes at Hell's Arena, and become Hell's Champion (FLING DEM ACIDBALLS!!!), and my story says that he was the FIRST doomguy, the hero is #2, and while our hero wiped out Phobos, Doom, Hell's Champion led the forces of evil against Earth's defenses (So THAT'S how they beat earth's entire military when one lone marine beat the crap out of them on Phobos.....). so the Hell's Champion campaign is pretty cool. especially since you start out with the BCBC ("BCx2), the Beam Corruption Bio-Cannon (tainted BFG).... oww. you also have a combat shotgun to start, and as the Champion, u can fling acidballs like a Baron. and, the monsters help u. of course, the enemies are really fing strong. the weakest guy has a Minigun. not chaingun, minigun. ie swiss cheese = you!.... and you know whats funny? everything ive said after the story part ive just been typing up on the spot lol. still, the BCx2 and the acidballs are from way back when i first suggested this guy. note, the unlock could easily make you work for this campaign - unlocking gives you the option to accept the Hell's Arena offer... of course the offer is only made if you COMPLETE the arena. if you back out of the fights, too bad. its fairly early so... interesting idea huh? and the final boss could be the Terran General (and your superior, who sent you out to die.... revenge is cherished in hell, mercy is punished....) in some sort of battle mech! hmmmmm...........

[Sachiko]

Wow... Just... Wow.

The idea of doing the "Evil path" is certainly seducing. Being in the other side of the conflict can prove to be an amazing point of view.

[bfg9001]

Playing as "Evil" would be pretty cool. Didn't exactly picture it like that though, lol. A mech would be somewhat out of place.

[Chynn]

Playing as "Evil" would be pretty cool. Didn't exactly picture it like that though, lol. A mech would be somewhat out of place.

I'd hate to waste rockets just to widen the doors I couldn't fit through...

[Sachiko]

Playing as "Evil" would be pretty cool. Didn't exactly picture it like that though, lol. A mech would be somewhat out of place.

I'd hate to waste rockets just to widen the doors I couldn't fit through...

Actually, he meant that the final enemy of the evil path, not you, shall be riding some sort of mech armour, you know, like the boss of the Predator path in AvP2. You, the Champion of Hell, would still have to fight on foot. :P

[Chynn]

I'd hate to waste rockets just to widen the doors I couldn't fit through...

Actually, he meant that the final enemy of the evil path, not you, shall be riding some sort of mech armour, you know, like the boss of the Predator path in AvP2. You, the Champion of Hell, would still have to fight on foot. :P

Blast.

Even after a reread, I don't think I'd support mechs in the game at all. This makes me want to crack open the novelizations for ideas on what Earth's side should look like.

[RepoRipper]

lol.... im saying that the leader of the entire earth's military, when you finally get to him, will probably be prepared to not only whup some ass, but also even the playing field, considering that Hell's Champion would be more than a match for the best human soldier, on a BAD day. a mech would give the leader the strength to take you on with a chance.

[Dawgas]

why would a general fight himself

seriously, he would know to just send men with combat shotguns at you until you die

[Chynn]

why would a general fight himself

seriously, he would know to just send men with combat shotguns at you until you die

And because of that, you'd want to A) blow up the base, B) kill everyone, cornering him in the process, and confronting him (and his combat ability equivalent to a Former Human), or C) sending the entire base to hell (literally), like Phobos.

[RepoRipper]

answers...
A) if you have noticed, Hell's armies don't seem to be able to just "blow things up" on anything but the small scale. all they can do is blow up something that will cause a much bigger boom.
B) that's the point. and no, his fighting ability would be pretty good for him to be the Supreme General, but no, the reason for the Mech armor is specifically so that if anyone got to him with distasteful intentions, there would be hell to pay, and the General would be the Banker! plus, he would've been watching your rampage and would've figured out that without you, the forces of Hell could be repulsed, and therefore arrange to get you isolated from the rest of the army, at least for a time. and he WOULD send an army of soldiers to fight you out in the open; you just annihilate them with that BCBC of yours! after all, thats what a BFG, even a corrupted one, is designed to do: wipe out a room full of enemies!
C)before you could send it to hell, you would have to take it over first!!!! DUH!

[Titt]

and no, his fighting ability would be pretty good for him to be the Supreme General,

This is a hilarious idea. I mean obviously people do not become the commanders or "supreme generals" of any army by being some kind of incredible soldier, but the consequences of believing that they do, for the purposes of making a game, are pretty funny. For instance, the commander-in-chief, the highest commander, of the United States military is the US president. It would be HILARIOUS to play some game where you are some kind of Hell's minion and you fight your way through the forces of the US army until you face your final enemy...SUPER-SOLDIER GEORGE W. BUSH IN A MECH

[Xael]

Yeah, i still remember how much i howled in rage while playing Counter-strike Condition Zero. The boss of the penultimate stage, who was just a simple drug baron, took three AK74 clips to the head untill he droped dead. Surprisingly, the most realistic game in this aspect was the game called Cobra Mission (a game with a really unrealistic setting and gameplay): the general of the military part of the town couldn't even lift a gun at you after you beat his henchmen.

[bfg9001]

And another thing to consider is the fact that most general tend to be well into their late 60's or even their 70's. Sure, they may have been "uber bad-ass" soldiers (or Marines, in the case of Doom) when they were younger, but age tends to catch up with most, if not all, people.

[RepoRipper]

i mean he didn't get to STAY the Supreme General by being a weakling in his youth! he may be older, but that's why he has the MECH!!! although the image of "I'm not a tree, I'm a Bush" in a mech is hilarious : his first shot would either hit the White House or the Pentagon, then he would declare a national emergency and run off to Texas to go golfing for a few weeks...................................... 'Nuff Said.

note, the idea of a military combat mech is NOT undoomish, it fits perfectly : combat mech is one step DOWN from the remote controlled plasma-cannon-toting spider-tank-things, i.e. what the demons turned into Arachnotrons..... at least they can't do that to a piloted mech!

on a side note, i have a whole character, story, world, and technology for a Mech with an awakened (and therefore unwanted) AI, name is GESTALT : Graviton Energized Suit ~ Total Assault Link ~ [traitorous]. yeah, the last part was added after she awakened (self-realized, becoming a true, sentient intelligence), and get this; only one gun! its called the Omni-Rifle, it can fire continuously, in a burst, single round with precision (sniper), and can fire via SPG Launcer. SPG = Super-Propelled Grenade. SPG is basically nothing more than an overcharged handheld grenade launcher. as such, it can go pretty far before the grenade starts to arc down, though not as far as an RPG, but it fires standard grenades, so no expensive rocket propulsion to outfit on each shot! also means less aiming needed... also, has booster jets on back, not designed for flight, though it can assist long jumps, its designed to accelerate the mech along the ground. also, the TotalAssaultLink, is just like it sounds : Direct Neural Interface between AI and Pilot (pilot is termed an "Operator". yeah, its awesome.

sorry i get sidetracked a lot....