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[Titt]

I was surprised, while playing Ao100 in 0.9.8.10, to find that after reaching character level 19, my experience readout seemed stuck at 19/0%, and I was then more surprised to find it eventually change, to 19/1% and then 19/2%. I only noticed it changing immediately after nuking levels, though.

Is it the case that experience is supposed to stop growing at character level 19, and there's a bug which allows you to gain more experience anyway by nuking levels? Or is this an intentional thing? Or is it the case that experience continues growing, but only very very slowly, so that it's possible (but very difficult) to reach level 20?

[Blade]

I haven't nuked any level during playing and at level 100 i had 19/4%. Exp is growing after level 19, and growing at the same rate as before, but requirement for level 20 is so damn huge that it's nearly impossible to reach it even in Ao100.

[Titt]

Thanks for the information. Has anyone ever made it to character level 20?

[Blade]

There is no chance to get so much exp even in Ao100. Spawning levers gives not enough exp, and ressurected monsters don't give it at all. And, imho the main reason: noone tried it because the reward doesn't worth it. Noone have so much time that they can waste so stupidly.)

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Umm, to be honest, the game would probably crash once you reached l20 :P

[Cyber Killer]

IMHO levels in rpg are stupid - the point of a roleplaying game isn't just to get your character leveled up so much that there isn't anyone more powerfull in the whole universe :-P. Well I guess that's just the curse of D&D cast upon cRPG's ;-P. (in most pen & paper RPG's there are no such things as character levels)

[Upaut]

(in most pen & paper RPG's there are no such things as character levels)

Really?  Which tabletop RPGs were you playing?  I mean, I could swear every D&D (yes, I'm including v1, despite only playing v2 and up) had character levels.  Shadowrun, Vampire the Masquerade, and White Wolf had character levels as well.  I would name off more, but I think my point is made...

[FantomFang]

First post in this forum! So before I respond to the post, I'd just like to say, Great game, Kornel.

On the topic of levels in RPG's, they are not strictly needed, but every game has some sort of leveling process. Whether it is D&D, or Cyberpunk 2020 (no levels, only skill points earnings) Really, the point of an RPG is to have some sort of leveling system, or else it isn't an RPG, it is simply a roleplay. Whether or not those levels have a major impact on the game is another beast entirely (Cyberpunk 2020 vs. D&D, no matter how much you 'level' in Cyberpunk, which means increasing your skills, you are still easily killable. D&D is the opposite).

Honestly, I would have to say more RPG's do have levels. As long as the system is balanced, even god-like powers aren't bad. Anyways, you can just choose what you prefer.

One last thing, if you think leveling systems in RPG's are bad, how would you propose changing it? Besides, it seems to me the leveling system in DoomRL isn't strictly a leveling system. Its just a good way to fill in the process of how your Doomguy picks up tricks and tactics as the game goes on, instead of getting simply "stronger".

Meh, sorry if i rambled a little bit off that, I just hate leaving thoughts incomplete =)
Great game again Kornel!

[Cyber Killer]

rpgs without levels: (to name a few) Paranoia, Fading Suns, all Tri-Stat dX based games, Call of Cthulhu, all Savage Worlds based games, Neuroshima (very popular game in Poland)... - there are skill points, but no character levels

it would be easier to say that nearly only D&D/d20 based games have character levels, but...

there is more to RPG than D&D :-)

[zaimoni]

rpgs without levels: (to name a few) Paranoia, Fading Suns, all Tri-Stat dX based games, Call of Cthulhu, all Savage Worlds based games, Neuroshima (very popular game in Poland)... - there are skill points, but no character levels

Yes.

it would be easier to say that nearly only D&D/d20 based games have character levels, but...

Back when I was actively collecting rules sets (admittedly before d20; I dropped out of that ~1998), maybe 75% of games had explicit leveling.  The proportion of levelless games went up by publication date.

there is more to RPG than D&D :-)

Yes.

[jake250]

Really, the point of an RPG is to have some sort of leveling system, or else it isn't an RPG, it is simply a roleplay.

I personally hate people that gives such claims. A RPG is a ROLE PLAYING GAME and there is absolutely nothing in its naming that indicates in any way a requirement for levels. Plus, you don't even need levels to give a sense of advancement.

[Blade]

Imho levels are an objective way to show toughness of player to other players. You need just to say: I'm 35-th level now", instead of saying: "I have maxed my skill of short swords fighting, running, my shield skill is 86, and i have 378 magic points". It's plain shorter way to show your superiority.

[Chamber]

A level-less RPG - a noble sentiment.

At least in Doom, advancement comes both from getting new talents and picking up new weapons, so it feels natural. 

Now who wants to join me in my crusade to abolish hitpoints?  :)

[Dawgas]

Fuck you.

Hitpoints make this game SANE, imagine if you didn't have them

oh, and there should be more levels at least possible to achieve, even if you would never be able to reach them in a game (level 20, 21?)

[rekenne]

A) Don't be so quick to say "Fuck you" to people. Be civil.

B) It was clearly a joke.

[rekenne]

A level-less RPG - a noble sentiment.

There actually have been a few (console) RPGs that have done this - Notably, the SaGa series of games, which, in the US, includes the Final Fantasy Legend GB games, as well as SaGa Frontier 1 and 2 on PSX. Final Fantasy 2, as well, went with a level-less system. In the both games, you leveled up in a number of ways, such as buying stat increases from stores, eating monster meat/equipping parts dropped by monsters, and random small stat gains after combat.

Chrono Cross slightly did this, in that you gained "levels", but only at certain plot points, so your level was fixed.

... Aside from that, though, I can't think of any other examples.

Now, in P+P games, it's actually more the norm to be levelless, anymore.

[Upaut]

Final Fantasy 2, as well, went with a level-less system. In the both games, you leveled up in a number of ways, such as buying stat increases from stores, eating monster meat/equipping parts dropped by monsters, and random small stat gains after combat.

Correction:  Final Fantasy Legend 2, not Final Fantasy 2.  The former you described, the latter had levels, despite skills being learned from actually performing tasks (i.e. using a weapon, casting a spell).

Chrono Cross slightly did this, in that you gained "levels", but only at certain plot points, so your level was fixed.

Correction:  You gained levels, yes, but not at any certain time.  Techniques, however, were fixed at plot points (of which, I can't remember any of them besides the body switch).  I will however point out that, more often than not, you gained levels after boss fights.  I do remember it being rather a pain in the butt to get those blasted rainbow shells and other assorted scraps to make the better equipment.

...I wonder what ever happened to the badly named Chrono Time...

[Darkwaterotter]

Do you think it would be possible to get to lvl 20 if you kill all the enemies in every level on Ao100
itd be hell of a lot of work but could it be done?

[Titt]

On M difficulty you wouldn't even be close--completing Ao100 on M with 98% or 99% kills gets me only to 19/2% experience.

Someone with one of the cheat programs that searches for a string of values in RAM and then lets you edit the values at that address might take this on as an experiment--use the cheat program to freeze your health at maximum while playing a game of Ao100 on Nightmare, clear out every level completely and use every possible monster-summoning lever as many times as possible, and see if you make it to level 20 before finishing level 100.

[Blade]

You won't get enough. On UV if you will kill 100% of monsters, you will get only approximately 4% exp. Levers maybe will add 1%, but I doubt it. The only possible way is to use an editing tool and to try to set your level to 19 and your exp to 99%. But there's no point in doing so, because, as Kornel said, the game will anyway crash when you will reach 20-th level.

[Darkwaterotter]

Someone with one of the cheat programs that searches for a string of values in RAM and then lets you edit the values at that address might take this on as an experiment--use the cheat program to freeze your health at maximum while playing a game of Ao100

you mean like hexadecimal right

[Deathpenalty]

I tested it out with a hex editor. 1,000,000 exp will get you to level 19/9%. Raising yourself to level 20 will indeed crash the game. It is impossible to reach that high of a level anyways, even in Ao100.

[007bistromath]

Paranoia

ROYGBIV

[raekuul]

Getting back to the topic: Kornel, I could check if the game crashes as Lv. 20, if only I knew what numbers to look for when gaining EXP.

Cheating programs + Research applications = FOR THE GREATER GOOD

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

In the current beta neither does it crash, nor rise above 20 ( and yeah, level 20 is now reachable :) ).

[raekuul]

Semi-related note: how much EXP does a former human give?

[Malek Deneith]

23xp

Such info is available on wiki ;) (it might not be properly maintained lately, but there still is a lot of stuff to read :P)

[raekuul]

I did manage to cause an EXP Overflow crash when I forced Lv. 20. I'll try and pull the error message out if I do it again. Which I will ;)

Code: [Select]

oFire -- Choose target... The barrel explodes! The former human dies. You
Eadvance to level 20! <Enter> Game saved. Press <Enter> to exit.
  $0044DDBF  TPLAYER__ADDEXP,  line 145 of dfplayer.pas those pesky bullets
  $00464908  TBEING__KILL,  line 975 of dfbeing.pas.
  $004660F6  TBEING__APPLYDAMAGE,  line 1213 of dfbeing.pas
  $0046BDC6  TLEVEL__EXPLOSION,  line 721 of dflevel.pas
  $00421D3E  LUA_LEV_EXPLOSION,  line 664 of doomlua.pas
  $000E54E1      (2)
  $000E58A2nails(2) to unlock
  $000E5AC12) to unlock
  $00424E91  TDOOMLUA__CALLHOOK,  line 1312 of doomlua.pas
  $0046A9A2  TLEVEL__DAMAGETILE,  line 512 of dflevel.pas
  $00466658  TBEING__SENDMISSILE,  line 1298 of dfbeing.pas
  $00461E54  TBEING__FIRE,  line 599 of dfbeing.pas
  $00450883  TPLAYER__DOFIRE,  line 676 of dfplayer.pas
  $00451FA5  TPLAYER__AICONTROL,  line 946 of dfplayer.pas
  $00463935  TBEING__ACTION,  line 818 of dfbeing.pas
  $00463A95  TBEING__CALL,  line 830 of dfbeing.pas
  $0046CC9D  TLEVEL__TICK,  line 837 of dflevel.pas

Abnormal program termination! Please write down the above
to help get rid DoomRL of all those bugs! You only need
to write down the filenames and linenumbers.
Attempting to save game.... Press <Enter>

Shot a pistol to blow up a barrel, killed two Former Humans and a Chaingunner. 0.9.8.10

[Blade]

  $0044DDBF  TPLAYER__ADDEXP,  line 145 of dfplayer.pas those pesky bullets

LOL'd.))

[Anarchic Fox]

Is there any solid gameplay reason to not have higher experience levels than nineteen?  They wouldn't come into play during regular games, which can only go to level fourteen or fifteen (on UV).  They would only matter in Ao100 games, and the main attraction of that challenge is the fact that it lets you build a ridiculously powerful player, so higher levels seems reasonable for them.

[raekuul]

Eh, I'm doing it so see the effects. Plus, it's nice to know that I really do only get so many levels to plan for in a real play.

[Anarchic Fox]

Eh, I'm doing it so see the effects. Plus, it's nice to know that I really do only get so many levels to plan for in a real play.

I was addressing the gameplay aspect, not your accomplishment of bypassing it. :)

I think the higher levels should be balanced so that, on Ao100, you gain about a level per eight completely cleared areas after character level fifteen or so.  That would put a winning player around levels 22-25, and it would partly fix the biggest problem of Ao100, namely the tedium of later levels.  Up until nineteen you have the motivation to keep going because you want to make your godlike marine just that much more powerful... but then the motivation disappears halfway through, because you hit the level cap.  At that point stubbornness is the only thing keeping you going.

[Captain Trek]

Up until nineteen you have the motivation to keep going because you want to make your godlike marine just that much more powerful... but then the motivation disappears halfway through, because you hit the level cap.  At that point stubbornness is the only thing keeping you going.

And at what point does an Ao100 player usually reach level 19?

Also, what exactly is the system with regards to the amount of EXP required to level up? Does it increase based on some kind of formula?

[Anarchic Fox]

And at what point does an Ao100 player usually reach level 19?

A more experienced player could tell you precisely, but I remember it happening around dungeon level 50.