Print

Please login or register.

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[Elnar]

After a week of playing I see some major differences between this games:
1) Player can't move and shoot in one time.
2) Shotguns efficiency greatly lowered. In Doom shotguns in arms of skilled player can kill any monster, in doomrl high spread and fast damage decoy of the shotgun make them almost useless in ranged "duel". Only in pointblank range it can kill weak monster in one shot, Bigger enemies can take around 20 shots and live.
3) To fast some monsters: mancubus walks and shoots at imps speed, archvile can do douleshot in one second, Archnotron firing speed faster 2-3 times.
4) Weak BFG of strong some monsters, BFG can't kill baron of hell and archvile in one shot.
5) Archvile can raize enemies at distance, up to 3 in one time.

In result I has one question - its laws of a genre or special vision of developers?

[ParaSait]

It's all about stability. If the BFG could kill the BoH's and Viles in one shot, it would be overpowered. If Mancubi moved slower, they would be too easy. See what I mean?

[Elnar]

Balance, balance ... but BFG is a final weapon, and it efficiency very low in this game. It can be usefull only on Valuts level, for destroying wall without harming uself. In another places good old advanced rocket launcher, with 4-8 upgrades, much more usefull due it higher speed/reload and you can carry X10 more ammo in backpack.

[ParaSait]

Balance, balance ... but BFG is a final weapon, and it efficiency very low in this game. It can be usefull only on Valuts level, for destroying wall without harming uself. In another places good old advanced rocket launcher, with 4-8 upgrades, much more usefull due it higher speed/reload and you can carry X10 more ammo in backpack.

Yeah, you're right, I only use the BFG for cybie OR for critial situations as a last option. But the "balance-creators" of the game think like this: If it's too strong, Cybie will be too easy. At the other hand, it's too weak for normal monsters. So logically thinking, Cyberdemon should be given some more HP but then we get to the problem of players accidently skipping The Halls of Carnage or The City of Skulls, where a BFG is located, and they will have to fight him with a "weak" rocket launcer or plasma rifle, so that will be unfair for them. See how hard it is to balance a game?

[Blade]

It's not nearly week.
1) Without any traits you need 1 second to fire Rl, 1 second to reload it, and 1 more second to fire again. You can fire 3 shots with BFG in the same time.
2) RL has much smaller blast radius. BFG has much-much bigger and it damages even enemies that are outside your LoS.
3) BFG do not always kill monster in 1 shot. RL do not either. BUT: BFG should not kill monster in 1 shot. It's not a sniper rifle, you know. It always was a massive killer, it's ideal for damaging/killing a really large group of monsters because it deals damage to every monster in it. And second shot is almost always enough to finish them all. In my recorded HMP run it really saved my life on level 20, nothing else could save me there.

[Elnar]

BFG should not kill monster in 1 shot. It's not a sniper rifle, you know.

In Doom 1-2 direct hit from BFG kill any monsters, exept Cyber Demon, in case of it's massive power consumption BFG has been more anti-SinglePowerfullMonster than area effect weapon.

But one thing make me optimistic. All things that I don't like is balance things, not hardlymodfying interface or core system. After relise of modtools or mod-friendly version, this game will be almost ideal ...
for me.

[Blade]

I dunno, i always used RL to kill Cyberdemon or Spider Mastermind in DooM.) I used BFG on large groups of monsters like lots of Revenants, Mancubi and Arachnotrons.)

[ParaSait]

All things that I don't like is balance things

If things are unbalanced, players would only use one overpowered weapon. That ain't fun either, isn't it?
Compare it to a cheap space shooter. In level one you've got a really weak gun, but before level 3 or so you've got the biggest killer-shuttle of the game, causing you to put an object on the SPACE key, take a nap, and if you wake up you appear to have won the game. I'm not kidding, I once did that. XP

For me, balance is something really important, especially for turn-based, sorta strategy games like DoomRL.

[Titt]

About game balance, I think DoomRL is one of the most balanced roguelikes there is, which means you can play a lot of games of it, because it's very fun to play as a chaingun-based character, a shotgun-based character, an AoMr character, and an AoB character, and each of them plays in a completely different way. The Stone Soup branch of Crawl is the only roguelike I know of which is even more impressively balanced and replayable in this way than DoomRL.

[Elnar]

players would only use one overpowered weapon

Chaingun, two damage mods, three levels of SoB and you can complete UV without another weapons. And if you find advanced version ...

2 Blade:

used BFG on large groups of monsters like lots of Revenants, Mancubi and Arachnotrons

In Doom BFG has three bad sides for combat with large groups: It's slow firing, can't kill monsters behind monster(or some cover) and you need to keep targets at your sight to damage them. In DoomRL BFG is complete different weapon. It fast firing, has rounded area effect and can damage anyone in this radius. I understand rebalanced damage in this case.

[Titt]

and you need to keep targets at your sight to damage them.

This isn't actually exactly true; check out the BFG FAQ.

[ParaSait]

What a coincidence! Guess what I saw today? A car with license plate "BFG 900"!
Seriously!!

[Grassi]

  I think a few things have needed to be changed in order to make the game balanced for a turn based game. Moving and shooting at the same time is rather hard to reproduce in a turn based game. I'm rather happy with the random nature of the levels, you KNOW you've played way too much doom if you can run through the first 5 or 6 levels on UV without getting hit. The shotgun that is used in Doom is more like the combat shotgun. If I recall, you did have to shoot enemies that were far away several times, due to the pellet spread.  Strafing made things easy in Doom, along with the time it took for most of the projectiles to reach you (imp, HK,BOH or cacodaemon fireballs), you could sit there and take out a caco with the pistol without getting hit once. Shotties in the RL can kill things in one hit if they are close enough. Also remember that in the RL some enemies, usually the former humans will wear armor.  I know this is fixed now, but I dreaded running around a corner into a BOH with a RL or BFG, they wear armor too if they can find it(BOH wearing red armor with a RL seeking dead doomguy that is crunchy and goes good with ketchup :D). I don't find the BFG that changed really, in fact the firing speed in DoomRL is greatly increased, no more delay in the firing, to compensate it eats ammo like there will be no tomorrow(suck it up marine). It's still quite deadly, the value of hitting everything in the room and at least causing some damage to everything cannot be over estimated. Archviles move slower in the RL, which is nice, while as in Doom you have to kill them asap or your frigged, they don't seem to run around the corner and ressurect everything while you're running after them frantically. I think the DoomRL is much harder over all.  Oh the demons of different types would attack eachother in Doom, this was great fun, to peg one and position yourself behind another demon.  Oh, also in general, there was more ammo availible in DOOM.

[Elnar]

Moving and shooting at the same time is rather hard to reproduce in a turn based game

Hundreds of board and computer turnbased games has moving phase and shooting phase. It's simple system.

If I recall, you did have to shoot enemies that were far away several times, due to the pellet spread.

Only for imps and greater. Zombies can be killed in one shot.

[Darkwaterotter]

i find myself in both dooms that i only used the BFG in areas with a crapload of enemies very rarely do i use it on the cyberdemon or BoH however it dose seem somewhat deluded but that dosent mean its a weak weapon i tend to use the chain gun the most except on Hell knights and BoH but it too seems to be watered down none the less the point isnt for doomrl to be the same thing only rougelike but also to be more challenging