DRL > Requests For Features
I HAVE AN AWESOME IDEA!!!!(caps)
ultimate26:
I BELIEVE that all weapons should be useful by themselves and improve with traits, right now if u dont do anything with shotguns they are useless unless you fully trait emm up, chaingun and other guns are all decent, EE is a universal skill besides for shotguns... i could melee, pistols or chainguns if i max EE but not shotgun, for shotgun i could max reloader and shotty spec traits and it wont help my ranged tree!
this is a bit unfair because shotguns are being left aside, hell if i had to go close combat aint the chainsaw better? no ammo chewing decent damage and possibility to get lance.
the only advantage shotty gives is AOE damage, hits multiple targets without accuracy mods but distance reduction destroys the whole purpose! im not saying DO FULL DAMAGE FROM FAR! im saying make it more moderate or traitable so that its not SOOO bad.
and yea those who are protecting the shotgun build, try beating the game on hard or something and post a mortem, i want to see how often people can do shotty runs and be effective because seriously shotgun path is too narrow forcing you to use only shotguns, the EE path gives me everythign i find usefull
rekenne:
With the shotty path, you still get the ability to use rockets or the BFG, due to the rocket having a massive accuracy boost anyway. And the BFG ... Well... Do I need to say more? So, realistically, the game goes Pistol until you get the shotgun, then you either go Rapidfire path or Shotty Path, with either one getting the Rocket and BFG.
And, really, are you trying to claim the Chaingun is useful without EE and SoaB? That's absurd. The pisspoor accuracy of the Chaingun and plasma gun in the latest versions makes it so trying to hit anything more than a couple of squares away without EE is impossible. And then SoaB is needed to make your bullets anything more than pings off the armor of most later enemies. Most end game enemies have 2 armor, giving the Chaingun a pitiful 1.6 damage per bullet on average. That, against a Baron of Hell, that you won't be hitting unless you're within a few squares, will kill him in 37.5 shots. That's 8 rounds of firing if every bullet hits. Cybie? He has 4 armor. Even the plasma gun is down to doing 0 damage half the time against that.
So, yeah. Each weapon standing without traits? Only the rocket and BFG meet that.
Hell, EE isn't even strictly mandatory in pistol builds. I normally take it once. Which isn't enough for a rapid fire build.
Ischaldirh:
Thought I'd throw in my two cents, for what they're worth (which is probably significantly less than two cents).
I like shotguns. Well, more specifically I like the idea of shotguns. Automatic weapons just feel too mundane and obvious for me, not to mention the rate at which plasma cells vanish. I think they work great how they are, and fill a rather significant niche in the game (namely -- bailing out those long range guys when something angry gets too close), as well as being a fun primary that needs a bit of tactics to use, like pretty much everything else in this game. Aside from which, there are so many other traits to choose from
That being said, however, I do see some merit in his suggestion. I am of the opinion that in most games, any given option chosen at any given levelup should provide SOME usefulness regardless of what sort of path the character may take later in the game. I especially feel this way about the basic traits, since they unlock other, potentially useful advanced traits. I mean, imagine if by some fluke of chance you sank went down the Eagle Eye and Finesse trees, got all the useful traits for a chaingun build, and instead of finding fancy chainguns and plasma rifles to back up the strategy, every other level contained some form of advanced shotgun along with gazillions of shotgun shells? Now, obviously Eagle Eye should be more useful with a ranged-weapon build than a shotgun build; however I wouldn't mind seeing a little bit of crossover between the two even if it is ever so slight. After all, every other basic trait (barring SoaG, but that's special in it's own right) benefits the player in some way, however slight, no matter how they are armed: Reloader lets you get more bullets in your gun faster if there is an emergency need to reload in the middle of a firefight, Finesse lets you put lead in people faster, Hellrunner lets you get away before the demons can take advantage of the fact that you're out of ammo, etc.
However, I have another counter-point to my own statement. This particular idea simply is not logical. Of course, neither is the idea that just because you're an asshole you can do more damage, but that can be attributed to knowing where to aim, etc. But with the shotgun, you'd have to pretty well defy the laws of physics to make a shotgun lose damage more slowly at a range. The things work by tossing out a spray of small projectiles; the high damage at close range is due to more of them hitting the target. But as they get further away, they become less densely packed, meaning it becomes less and less likely that any given one will hit any given object.
So in short: I like the idea of this ability granting some small benefit, but dislike the idea of it providing this particular benefit.
Thomas:
--- Quote from: ultimate26 on December 07, 2008, 17:47 ---Stuff about all weapons being decent without traits except shotguns.
--- End quote ---
The chaingun and double shotty have similar usefulness on a traitless character. The chaingun keeps missing, the shotgun keeps doing reduced damage unless you can ambush your enemies in close range.
Heck, more range means less accuracy, so to stop your chaingun from missing you'd need to get up close like a shotgun user anyway.
--- Quote ---this is a bit unfair because shotguns are being left aside, hell if i had to go close combat aint the chainsaw better? no ammo chewing decent damage and possibility to get lance.
--- End quote ---
It takes 3 seconds to reload then fire a Dshotgun for 36 damage.
But you can just keep swinging for 14 per hit every second with a chainsaw. This makes 42 every 3 seconds.
But then you add in the fact that the chainsaw can miss, and the 42 becomes roughly 36 again.
Keep in mind that there's no "Swing from a little further back to do less damage" option with the chainsaw, making it less versatile. And it does not do AoE damage.
And it can't destroy barrels without having you take lots of damage as a result.
And this is without mentioning the best part about the DoubleShotty, it's ability to do lots of damage in the first second (Which is the most important second. If you kill everything in the first second, it doesn't matter if you need to reload after that.)
Traitless Chaingun: 15 damage in one second... if every bullet hits. So around 11 on average then. (Note, this is only twice as good as a pistol shot.)
Traitless Rocket Launcher: The rocket does 14 damage, but the explosion adds another 14 on to that or something. Let's just call it 30.
Traitless DShotty: 36 damage in one second, at point blank. For every square you are away, remove 3 damage.
Traitless PlasmaRifle: 36 damage in one second... if every cell hits. So around 27 on average then.
Making the Doubleshotty better at one-shot-killing things than the plasma rifle at point blank or short ranges.
It's also better than the rocket launcher at point blank or short ranges, and it doesn't hurt you or the items.
And the chaingun is only better than the DShotty at, say, 10 squares away? Which is basically sniping the enemy.
--- Quote ---and yea those who are protecting the shotgun build, try beating the game on hard
--- End quote ---
I was about to say I beat you to the punch there, but then I noticed that you specifically said "Hard" probably solely for this reason.
I've only beaten hard once (And V.Hard once as well) and it's certainly no walk in the park, even for the generic rapid-fire build. Heck, I could go out on a limb and assume that you've never beaten the game on hard. You would've posted a mortem of it or something if you did, right?
So if you think the rapidfire build's so great, then surely you could beat the game on hard like you claim the shotgun build can't. Of course, failure to do this means that you're admitting that the build doesn't matter per se, only the person actually playing.
Visalos:
Thinking about the gripes about diminishing returns on shotty damage at range, I realize that SHOTGUNS ARE FOR BLOWING HUGE HOLES IN DEMONS POINT BLANK.
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