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Author Topic: Juggler dual wield melee?  (Read 7916 times)

Deathpenalty

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Juggler dual wield melee?
« on: January 07, 2009, 14:58 »

Trait description says it automatically uses a melee weapon in prepared slot. Could I have a melee weapon in my primary AND prepared slot then, to do a double-attack?
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Deathpenalty

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Re: Juggler dual wield melee?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2009, 21:52 »

Anybody?
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LockeCarnelia

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Re: Juggler dual wield melee?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2009, 22:44 »

If this is not implemented, it should be.
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007bistromath

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Re: Juggler dual wield melee?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2009, 00:30 »

That would totally break AoB. It's already pretty much broken if you have anything better than the chainsaw. With this, you'd barely even need it, just a pair of knives.

That said, I always keep something in my prepared slot in AoB anyway, just so I can imagine what my character looks like standing at the entrance to the Phobos Arena with a spear and a chainsaw. :3
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 00:32 by 007bistromath »
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Jarkko

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Re: Juggler dual wield melee?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2009, 05:29 »

I don't think this works, I tried to test it a bit. I found out that demons died a whole lot easier to the chainsaw than a combat knife, and you only get one "You hit the demon" message.
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Silhar

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Re: Juggler dual wield melee?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2009, 10:15 »

If this is not implemented, it should be.

Agreed. This would even make melee builds useful in regular game !

rekenne

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Re: Juggler dual wield melee?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2009, 11:14 »

I'm agreeing that this would be broken and shouldn't be implemented.
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Deathpenalty

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Re: Juggler dual wield melee?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2009, 15:00 »

I tested it out as well, and I'm still only getting one hit message, so I assume it doesn't work. In higher difficulties it wouldn't be too broken I think. Assuming you don't weapon bait, I think dual-wield melee is pretty fair. Not to mention you need to invest in a useless trait for melee in order to do it.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 21:54 by Deathpenalty »
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Anarchic Fox

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Re: Juggler dual wield melee?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2009, 06:11 »

I'm agreeing that this would be broken and shouldn't be implemented.

I don't think so, because unless you're very lucky, you'll move through these combinations:

Two combat knives.  Spiffy, but there's the speed penalty to consider, and by the time you have all the prerequisite traits you have the chainsaw.
Chainsaw and knife.  There's only one chainsaw.  This is not too different from chainsaw alone, since the chainsaw does nearly twice the damage of the combat knife with Brute(3).
LS and chainsaw.  If you have the LS, you've already won.  So what if the damage is even higher?

However, as I said in a different post, I think the dual-wielding melee aspects should be removed from Juggler and have their own trait, with hefty prerequisites (like Brute(3) and Berserker(1)).
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rekenne

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Re: Juggler dual wield melee?
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2009, 09:30 »

If there was a speed penalty, it might be balanced. As Juggler is right now, there wouldn't be one. That the trait requirements are weird for a melee build sorta balances things, maybe. Making a dual wielder trait that unlocks after the melee build traits would be broken, though, especially considering you're getting all the Brute bonuses *again* on the second weapon. In no world do I see one trait giving you the ability to do an extra 2d5+12 damage being anywhere near balanced.

Maybe if you didn't get Brute or Berserker on the second hit and there was a good speed penalty. Maybe.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 09:39 by rekenne »
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Anarchic Fox

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Re: Juggler dual wield melee?
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2009, 10:18 »

If there was a speed penalty, it might be balanced. As Juggler is right now, there wouldn't be one. That the trait requirements are weird for a melee build sorta balances things, maybe. Making a dual wielder trait that unlocks after the melee build traits would be broken, though, especially considering you're getting all the Brute bonuses *again* on the second weapon.  In no world do I see one trait giving you the ability to do an extra 2d5+12 damage being anywhere near balanced.

Maybe if you didn't get Brute or Berserker on the second hit and there was a good speed penalty. Maybe.

It only seems unbalanced in the absence of context.  Going through your points in order:

Yeah, a speed penalty would be a necessity, so that there's an element of tradeoff as in Dualgunner.  The penalty should also be higher than Dualgunner's, since melee weapons are heavier.

Having non-melee trait requirements would make such a trait useless, because by the time you could reasonably unlock it you'd be past the UC.  On the other hand, having requirements like Brute(3) or Brute(3) plus Berserker(1) would grant this ability available in one of the most unbalanced portions of the challenge, namely shortly before the Chained Court.

More importantly, in the AoB challenge, doing an extra knife's worth of damage doesn't matter very much once you have the chainsaw.  At that point, if you can get yourself next to an enemy, you can kill almost anything in one or two moves.  With an extra knife swing, again, you can kill almost anything in one or two moves, given that you've probably skipped a level of EE to get the new ability.  Doing massive amounts of damage is _already_ the melee character's strength, and adding more doesn't do anything at all about its severe weaknesses, namely having to run up to an enemy and having to deal with multiple enemies at once.

In fact, calling the new skill DW, my ideal skill progression would look something like this, assuming DW at Brute(3)+Berserker and a speed penalty for it:

Bru->Bru->Ber->EE->Bru->HR->Iro->HR->DW->whatever...

It wouldn't be a particularly compelling skill like Berserker: I would aim for it to be my last skill before the UC, because that's the only place before the CD where the extra damage would make a significant difference.

I'm not sure about your Berserking suggestion.  On the one hand, it would decrease your already low chance of becoming Berserk before the AoD.  On the other hand, you could unequip the extra knife until you reach him, where the extra damage would certainly help.

Anyway, thanks for the explicit objections.  Those are much better than just a statement of preference. :)
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myuzinn

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Re: Juggler dual wield melee?
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2009, 10:28 »

My take on it would be to ignore the juggler free melee hit thing, and merge dual-gunner into a single trait that allows any one-handed weapons to be dual-wielded, carrying over the same speed penalty. What constitutes "one-handed" would be the pistols and knives category. Not sure if I'd include the chainsaw as a "knife". Longinus Spear and DragonSlayer are definitely out.

As for the person who said 2x knives would break AoB, look at these numbers.
Note that A is the target's armor.
I'm assuming that all melee weapons currently have base firing speeds of 1s.
I'm assuming 100% accuracy for simplicity sake.

Chainsaw:
firing speed
=1s,
damage
=4d6-A
=[4,24]-A
=14-A average
damage/time
=14-A

2xKnives:
firing speed
=1.2s,
damage
=(2d5-A)x2
=([2,10]-A)x2
=[4,20]-2A
=12-2A average
damage/time
=(12-2A)/1.2
=10-A-(2/3)A

Difference
=(14-A) - (10-A-(2/3)A)
=4+(2/3)A

Chainsaw averages 4+(2/3)A more damage than dual knives per one unit of time.

Note that even if the dual-wield time penalty is removed, the dual knives still deal less damage.
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Anarchic Fox

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Re: Juggler dual wield melee?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2009, 10:38 »

Another disadvantage from the speed penalty just occurred to me.  Say you run up to a former human, and his mates suddenly show up from around a corner.  If you are single wielding, you kill them with one swing each, taking some damage.  With dual wielding, you still kill each of them in one hit, but now there's a speed penalty allowing them to chip away more of your health than before.

My take on it would be to ignore the juggler free melee hit thing, and merge dual-gunner into a single trait that allows any one-handed weapons to be dual-wielded, carrying over the same speed penalty.

SoG is useless for a melee character, so none would get the trait then.  And I figure the dualgunning trait is a matter of skill, not brute strength.  The combination doesn't work from that perspective.

Also, the current treatment of Juggler makes it look like the chainsaw is one-handed.  And there's Ash to consider. ;)
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myuzinn

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Re: Juggler dual wield melee?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2009, 10:57 »

Quote from: Anarchic Fox
SoG is useless for a melee character, so none would get the trait then.
Yeh I forgot to mention that I would change the pre-reqs of course. I'd probably dump it under finesse, since I figure one needs a bit of finesse to be ambidextrously coordinated. In order to make finesse more tempting to melee'ers, I'd apply its effects to melee attacks as well as ranged attacks. Maybe just fin(1) instead of fin(2).
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Vestin

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Re: Juggler dual wield melee?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2009, 11:11 »

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