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Author Topic: The Nuke  (Read 9648 times)

Vestin

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The Nuke
« on: January 10, 2009, 06:41 »

Ultraportable nuke.  Can be dropped down a staircase to clear out the level before you enter it, with obvious applications.
I think that the nuke we have right now needs some changes.
1* It should kill all the monsters and give us XP on the previous level, if we prime it and leave the level before it goes off... I can already imagine receiving a message "You suddenly hear a violent eruption !" on the level below...
As for implementation - calculate the XP for all the monsters left on the level, save that value when the level perishes, give it to the player either the same moment he enters the new level (east) or after the amount of turn it had left till explosion (minus the time needed to go down the stairs).
2* We should be able to turn it off by 'u'sing it while primed. (We... can't turn it off right now, right ? I never tried to...)
It might sound like making it more easy, but we would make a frantic run for turning it off possible and save a few marines whose invulnerability worn out just before the blast... Besides - turning something off just before it blows you into oblivion is always fun ;).
3* We should be able to drop it down to the next level, regardless of whether it's a special level or not. Would make the nuke useful regardless of nearby Inv Globes and would add some more possibilities. We would be tempted to drop it down, get the XP and not risk getting hurt, while also losing all the items and power-ups we might have recovered...
Implementation should be easy... Generate a level, place a nuke, blow it up, save the level... voila.
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Anarchic Fox

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Re: The Nuke
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2009, 07:08 »

Ultraportable nuke.  Can be dropped down a staircase to clear out the level before you enter it, with obvious applications.
3* We should be able to drop it down to the next level, regardless of whether it's a special level or not. Would make the nuke useful regardless of nearby Inv Globes and would add some more possibilities. We would be tempted to drop it down, get the XP and not risk getting hurt, while also losing all the items and power-ups we might have recovered...
Implementation should be easy... Generate a level, place a nuke, blow it up, save the level... voila.

I agree with the first two suggestions (including the delay before you receive the experience -- that's a nice touch!) but the last one is overpowered.  It would give a guaranteed full win, and Kornel has said he wants that to remain a matter of chance.
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raekuul

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Re: The Nuke
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2009, 07:28 »

If we do allow throwing it down a level, we should also add a 50% chance of an enemy throwing it back up starting on the level that the thermie is "found" on
1) The lower the level, the higher the chance of an enemy throwing it back up
2) The closer to detonation, the higher the chance of an enemy throwing it back up
3) Standing on/near the stairs at detonation will still vaporize the player.
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Vestin

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Re: The Nuke
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2009, 07:50 »

Ultraportable nuke.  Can be dropped down a staircase to clear out the level before you enter it, with obvious applications.
3* We should be able to drop it down to the next level, regardless of whether it's a special level or not. Would make the nuke useful regardless of nearby Inv Globes and would add some more possibilities. We would be tempted to drop it down, get the XP and not risk getting hurt, while also losing all the items and power-ups we might have recovered...
Implementation should be easy... Generate a level, place a nuke, blow it up, save the level... voila.

I agree with the first two suggestions (including the delay before you receive the experience -- that's a nice touch!) but the last one is overpowered.  It would give a guaranteed full win, and Kornel has said he wants that to remain a matter of chance.
Hey - if it's the only reason it's overpowered, it's not hard to fix it. Just make an exception for the Arena (and the last level) with something like this: "10... You toss the nuke down the staircase... Some monster throws it back ! 3... 2..." ;). You can even have a (small) chance to get the nuke thrown back to you from a regular level (depending on level difficulty ?), which then you would need to deactivate. It would suggest, however, that if the nuke does get thrown back, there should be monsters with hands in the first room of the next level (or it gets thrown back IF there  are monsters with hands there).

1) The lower the level, the higher the chance of an enemy throwing it back up
Meh. The lower levels are precisely what you would want to skip with the nuke. Let's not make it useless. I'd still go with the "monsters-with-hands" idea.

2) The closer to detonation, the higher the chance of an enemy throwing it back up
I think you would throw it by standing on the stairs and using it. So... Yeah - if it would get thrown back, it would have a bit less time to detonation. You'd have to get to it REALLY fast to turn it off. Or just plunge into the next level.


3) Standing on/near the stairs at detonation will still vaporize the player.

It should deal damage, but not full. But - yeah - it should have some blast radius, so you'd have to run away after throwing it in. You're shielded by the floor, so let's just make it like a barrel explosion, with the stairs in the center. Perhaps - a bit higher damage, but same radius...
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 08:00 by Vestin »
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Anarchic Fox

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Re: The Nuke
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2009, 07:53 »

Hey - if it's the only reason it's overpowered, it's not hard to fix it. Just make an exception for the Arena (and the last level) with something like this: "10... You toss the nuke down the staircase... Some monster throws it back ! 3... 2..." ;). You can even have a (small) chance to get the nuke thrown back to you from a regular level (depending on level difficulty ?), which then you would need to deactivate. It would suggest, however, that if the nuke does get thrown back, there should be monsters with hands in the first room of the next level (or it gets thrown back IF there  are monsters with hands there).

That's true, but I thought that exception would be unfair to the player who figured out that nuke strategy and tried to use it there.  As long as it's not an instadeath, it should be fine, though, and I'm warming to the idea of a more versatile nuke.
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Vestin

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Re: The Nuke
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2009, 08:03 »

Hey - if it's the only reason it's overpowered, it's not hard to fix it. Just make an exception for the Arena (and the last level) with something like this: "10... You toss the nuke down the staircase... Some monster throws it back ! 3... 2..." ;). You can even have a (small) chance to get the nuke thrown back to you from a regular level (depending on level difficulty ?), which then you would need to deactivate. It would suggest, however, that if the nuke does get thrown back, there should be monsters with hands in the first room of the next level (or it gets thrown back IF there  are monsters with hands there).

That's true, but I thought that exception would be unfair to the player who figured out that nuke strategy and tried to use it there.  As long as it's not an instadeath, it should be fine, though, and I'm warming to the idea of a more versatile nuke.
No instadeath - that's the whole point. The player would just either go "Oh SHIT ! Turn it off, turn it off, TURN IT OFF !" or duck into the next level for cover... Having Hellrunner would make disarming the bomb a LOT easier, though...
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rekenne

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Re: The Nuke
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2009, 09:23 »

I dunno. I don't really like any of these ideas. From a programming standpoint, 1 and 3 would be sorta hell. That, and ... they make it too easy. Free EXP for doing that, really?

2 isn't that bad of an idea, I suppose.
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Vestin

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Re: The Nuke
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2009, 10:09 »

I dunno. I don't really like any of these ideas. From a programming standpoint, 1 and 3 would be sorta hell. That, and ... they make it too easy. Free EXP for doing that, really?

2 isn't that bad of an idea, I suppose.
1* would be easy. Add a variable "XPfrompreviouslevel", when the player leaves the level - check for active nukes on that level. If the is one - count how much XP all the monsters on the level give, put the result into the XPfrompreviouslevel variable. Upon entering the new level the game would automatically check if XPfrompreviouslevel>0. If so - it would add that much XP to the player and output the message about the explosion. If we want it to be added only after the ammount of turn left on the bomb, we need another variable, like Timetillexplosion, which would give the XP after the right amount of turns (left on the bomb when leaving the level) has passed.
If *I* can figure out how it could be put into the game, then I'm sure it can't be that hard.

As for "making it too easy"... You lose EVERY SINGLE THING that could be useful on that level. No levers, power-up, ammo, weapons, mods, med-packs, phase devices... No uniques... Nothing. It's trading the possible gain into XP and safety. You'd mostly want to do that, when you're full on health and got everything you need... in which case - you probably could just go through the level and grind everything to death.
Think about it. It's just a level skip with XP. And you wouldn't do that, if you REALLY want to have that nuke till the very end.
Also - it would make Ao100 a bit easier, I guess...
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Anarchic Fox

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Re: The Nuke
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2009, 10:23 »

Quote
Also - it would make Ao100 a bit easier, I guess...

Those are good points.  Ao100 is already a cakewalk, though.  I beat it on the second try.  Even AoMr is harder.
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rekenne

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Re: The Nuke
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2009, 10:33 »

Hm. Good point about how to implement it. I was thinking about it having to keep the level in memory, but it really wouldn't.
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Jarkko

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Re: The Nuke
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2009, 14:35 »

Ao100 is already a cakewalk, though.  I beat it on the second try.  Even AoMr is harder.

That might not be an optimal way to judge the difficulty of things. I did AoMr on the third try and AoMs on the first try. Ergo, masochism is easier than marksmanship?

About the nukes I'd say that if it's not too much trouble coding-wise to do, it should be done like this:

1) Make it possible to shut down the nuke after arming it. Preferably with a chance to fail, as your doomguy is going all "OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT" and his hands are trembling as he's cutting the wires or some such. Maybe 50%=yay, 40%=fail, 10%=epic fail, bomb blows up in ya face. Also after disarming the bomb it should be useless so you wouldn't be able to use it again.

2) Make it possible to drop a nuke down the stairs.

3) Make it possible for the nuke to get thrown back up. Always in the case of lvl 25(or 26). The checking for monsters thing is too complicated I think, just make it a flat % or something like (10 + level#)% chance. Well that might not work so well in an Ao100 but it's supposed to be a challenge after all...

4) When leaving a level, check for an armed nuke. If one is found then blow it up but don't apply damage to the player. This way you'd get to see the explosions and stuff like normally.

I think this would make for the most 'fun'.
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Vestin

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Re: The Nuke
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2009, 17:00 »

1) Make it possible to shut down the nuke after arming it. Preferably with a chance to fail, as your doomguy is going all "OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT" and his hands are trembling as he's cutting the wires or some such. Maybe 50%=yay, 40%=fail, 10%=epic fail, bomb blows up in ya face.
There shouldn't be any additional detonation risk. It's not a booby trap - it's a bomb. You're not cutting wires - you're looking for the right button combination to press.
But - yeah - it should take a moment. A failure in one turn would, however, give you the opportunity to try again, with no penalty... unless the timer hit zero.

Also after disarming the bomb it should be useless so you wouldn't be able to use it again.
Nah. You should be able to turn it on and off as many times as you'd like. The fact that you have to stand still and work on the damn thing is a penalty in itself. You get thrown away by a stray acid ball - you die, as you probably won't get close enough to try for the second time...

3) Make it possible for the nuke to get thrown back up. Always in the case of lvl 25(or 26). The checking for monsters thing is too complicated I think, just make it a flat % or something like (10 + level#)% chance. Well that might not work so well in an Ao100 but it's supposed to be a challenge after all...
That would mean a 30% chance on level 20... Seems a bit too high. Let it just be level#%.

4) When leaving a level, check for an armed nuke. If one is found then blow it up but don't apply damage to the player. This way you'd get to see the explosions and stuff like normally.
I like to watch stuff blow up... but you went down the stairs. You don't see it - you hear it from a safe distance. Besides - it takes a little bit to really blow up...
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Jarkko

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Re: The Nuke
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2009, 18:18 »

Nah. You should be able to turn it on and off as many times as you'd like. The fact that you have to stand still and work on the damn thing is a penalty in itself. You get thrown away by a stray acid ball - you die, as you probably won't get close enough to try for the second time...

I like to watch stuff blow up... but you went down the stairs. You don't see it - you hear it from a safe distance. Besides - it takes a little bit to really blow up...

The first part: if you can use it even after disarming, then dropping the bomb downstairs would be a problem. See, you drop it down, monsters throw it back at you, you keep dropping it down until it works. This is kind of silly. Arming the bomb while not invulnerable should have some sort of risk with it, like losing the bomb. If you screw up with the bomb so it would kill you, but manage to disarm it in time, I think the fact that you're still alive and kicking is good enough and the bomb should be taken away from you.

2nd: Think of it as a cutscene of sorts. The @ disappears downstairs, but you're still treated to the action.
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Vestin

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Re: The Nuke
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2009, 05:34 »

The first part: if you can use it even after disarming, then dropping the bomb downstairs would be a problem. See, you drop it down, monsters throw it back at you, you keep dropping it down until it works. This is kind of silly. Arming the bomb while not invulnerable should have some sort of risk with it, like losing the bomb. If you screw up with the bomb so it would kill you, but manage to disarm it in time, I think the fact that you're still alive and kicking is good enough and the bomb should be taken away from you.
You have to get to the exact spot, on which the bomb landed and make a successful throw for disarming it, before it goes off. The point is - you can just get down the stairs, if you want to save yourself. If the bomb would end up being useless after disarming it - that's what you'd do. You only disarm it, if you're greedy enough to risk your life to get it back.
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Anarchic Fox

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Re: The Nuke
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2009, 11:06 »

Ao100 is already a cakewalk, though.  I beat it on the second try.  Even AoMr is harder.

That might not be an optimal way to judge the difficulty of things. I did AoMr on the third try and AoMs on the first try. Ergo, masochism is easier than marksmanship?

It's not the optimal way, true, but it is a criterion.  Probably the best way to go is to figure out which ones the most people have problem with.
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