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Author Topic: [H|98%|YAVP] First win on hard for me - pistols!  (Read 12624 times)

Zi

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[H|98%|YAVP] First win on hard for me - pistols!
« on: February 09, 2009, 22:41 »

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (v.0.9.8.10) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Z2, level 12 Cacodemon General, defeated the Cyberdemon
 on level 25 of the Phobos base.
 He survived 189518 turns and scored 171732 points.
 He wasn't afraid to be hurt plenty.

 He killed 626 out of 634 hellspawn. (98%)
 He held his right to remain violent.


-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  #..........................................................
  #..........................................................
  #..............#.#.......................###...............
  #........................###........###..###...............
  #........................###........###..###...............
  #............}...........###........###....................
  #............|.............................................
  #........................................................##
  #.......................................###.....###......##
  #.......................................###.....###......##
  #.......................................###.....###........
  #..................................###.....................
  #..................................###.....................
  #.........................###X.....###.....................
  #.........................###.......................###..##
  #...........##..............#.......................#>#..##
  #...........##......................................###..##
  #..........................................................
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 42/50   Experience 62303/12
  ToHit +6  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +0

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

    Tough as nails (Level 2)
    Son of a gun   (Level 3)
    Eagle Eye      (Level 3)
    Dualgunner     (Level 1)
    Intuition      (Level 3)

  SoG->SoG->SoG->DG->EE->EE->Int->Int->Int->EE->TaN->TaN->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   Necroarmor [1/6] (22%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   fastload rocket launcher (6d6) [0/1]
    [c] [ Boots      ]   modified plasteel boots [8/8] (80%) (P)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   modified BFG 9000 (11d8) [20/100] (D1)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] advanced pistol (2d4) [8/8] (S2M1A1)
    [b] modified pistol (2d4) [6/6] (S1)
    [c] 10mm ammo (x73)
    [d] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [e] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [f] rocket (x4)
    [g] rocket (x10)
    [h] rocket (x10)
    [i] rocket (x10)
    [j] rocket (x10)
    [k] power cell (x5)
    [l] small med-pack
    [m] large med-pack
    [n] Gothic Boots [10/10] (200%)

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    58 former humans
    78 former sergeants
    28 former captains
    110 imps
    47 demons
    75 lost souls
    36 cacodemons
    20 barons of hell
    1 Cyberdemon
    22 hell knights
    21 arachnotrons
    7 former commandos
    8 pain elementals
    12 arch-viles
    22 mancubi
    18 revenants

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 3 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 4 he stormed the Chained Court.
  On level 11 he ventured into the Halls of Carnage.
  On level 20 he entered the Vaults.
  He came, he saw, but he left.
  On level 21 he found the Necroarmor!
  On level 23 he entered the Lava Pits.
  On level 23 he found the Gothic Boots!
  He managed to clear the Lava Pits completely!
  Then at last he found Phobos Arena!
  On level 25 he finally defeated the Cyberdemon.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 Fire -- Choose target... The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The Cyberdemon
 fires! You are hit! Your Necroarmor is damaged! The Cyberdemon
 reloads his rocket launcher.
 You use a large med-pack. You feel fully healed.
 You reload the rocket launcher with rocket. You are hit! Your Necroarmor
 is damaged!
 You use a large med-pack. You feel fully healed.
 Fire -- Choose target... You hear an explosion! You are hit!
 You reload the rocket launcher with rocket.
 Fire -- Choose target... You hear an explosion!
 You use a phase device. You feel yanked in an non-existing direction!
 You reload the rocket launcher with rocket.
 You use a small med-pack. You feel healed.
 Your rocket launcher is already loaded.
 Fire -- Choose target... You hear an explosion! You hear the scream of a

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 Before him 139 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 119 of those were killed.
 4 of those were killed by something unknown.
 1 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 11 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 Some rumours though, say that the Cyberdemon was killed already!
 Is he immortal? 4 souls claim to have killed him...
 4 killed the bastard and survived.

--------------------------------------------------------------

My first win on hard, once again with my beloved pistols.  Numerically I still think max trait pistols are better dps/hitrate than max trait chaingun?  The only downside is you can't keep another weapon in the prepared slot.

Also, I didn't get any unique pistols, which usually make a huge difference in a pistol marine's power.  Lava pits at lev 23 were pretty useless, I should have just skipped it.  Chickened out and used a few shots of BFG/rockets on Cybie - how would you deal with him with pistols?  Plus his sight range seems to be 9 or something...hiding around corners doesn't help that much?

I think intuition's pretty useful - you can fire around corners without being spotted - the only pain is always having to re-aim the firing reticle/cursor after each shot.  You need to keep a lot of ammo in reserve to do this though; lots of missed shots:  I usually try to keep 600 rounds all the time, didn't see the wall this game so it took a lot more space.  It's doubly annoying when you realize you're not making any progress because an arch-vile is resurrecting what you just shot ("Hey, how come the number of dots is still the same!").

I've never seen an invul globe on the 24th floor!  Hrmmm....
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raekuul

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Re: [H|98%|YAVP] First win on hard for me - pistols!
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2009, 06:38 »

Killing Cybie with Pistols? I laugh at the idea. We would need Cateye 4 in order to pull it off.
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Tormuse doesn't lose, he dies on purpose to lull the demons into a false sense of security.

Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: [H|98%|YAVP] First win on hard for me - pistols!
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2009, 09:19 »

How do you think people complete AoMr, huh? ;)

Edit : LOLWUT? or LMFAO! 2000th post! xD
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 09:28 by Kornel Kisielewicz »
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at your service,
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raekuul

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Re: [H|98%|YAVP] First win on hard for me - pistols!
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2009, 10:55 »

How do you think people complete AoMr, huh? ;)

Good luck, Hellrunner, TaN, Armor and Replacement Armor, Strategy, Modded/Unique pistols, and at least two LMPs... or a thermie (and invuln) ;)

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Styro

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Re: [H|98%|YAVP] First win on hard for me - pistols!
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2009, 13:08 »

I am surprised to see so many speed mods on your pistols. I generally consider speed to be the weakest mod for weapons. Particularly for pistols since your speed is lowered so much by the pistol traits already.

Am I missing something? Or did you just not find anything better?

My preference for pistols is:
Damage
Magazine
Reload
Accuracy
Speed
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raekuul

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Re: [H|98%|YAVP] First win on hard for me - pistols!
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2009, 13:56 »

I prefer to take the "Moar Dakka" route: so Son of a Gun, Finesse, Speed Mods, Eagle-Eye. Dealing fewer harder punches versus more , if lesser, punches? I'll take Death by a Thousand Cuts any day. Minimum damage dealable is 1, so you probably are better off this way anyway.

Out of sheer curiosity, how fast can you shoot an Advanced Pistol (S4)?
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ParaSait

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Re: [H|98%|YAVP] First win on hard for me - pistols!
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2009, 15:28 »

LOLWUT? or LMFAO! 2000th post! xD
Welcome to Spider Mastermind-dom, oh almighty God of Roguelikes ;D

On topic, @Raekuul:
I absolutely DISagree with your quote "Killing Cybie with Pistols? I laugh at the idea. We would need Cateye 4 in order to pull it off."
If you build up your character so that he's DESIGNED for using pistols, which is usually the intention on AoMr, then killing Cybie with pistols is no problem at all. In some cases I'd even say Peanuts.
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skarczew

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Re: [H|98%|YAVP] First win on hard for me - pistols!
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2009, 16:08 »

Quote
How do you think people complete AoMr, huh? ;)
Thermonuclear sth.

Quote
I am surprised to see so many speed mods on your pistols. I generally consider speed to be the weakest mod for weapons. Particularly for pistols since your speed is lowered so much by the pistol traits already.

Am I missing something? Or did you just not find anything better?

My preference for pistols is:
Damage
Magazine
Reload
Accuracy
Speed
Good luck finding Damage mods on AoMr.

Quote
In some cases I'd even say Peanuts.
Thermonuclear sth.
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rekenne

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Re: [H|98%|YAVP] First win on hard for me - pistols!
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2009, 16:41 »

I am surprised to see so many speed mods on your pistols. I generally consider speed to be the weakest mod for weapons. Particularly for pistols since your speed is lowered so much by the pistol traits already.

Am I missing something? Or did you just not find anything better?

My preference for pistols is:
Damage
Magazine
Reload
Accuracy
Speed


Speed mods are definitely the best or second best mod for pistols. Once you have SoG 3, a few speed mods will jump you from being able to shoot twice in a second to three times, giving you +50% firepower. Damage mods can't nearly as easily pull that one off.

Also - Yeah. Cybie with pistols is surprisingly easy. I was expecting hell, too, but it wasn't nearly so bad. I had a Blaster and a double damage modded pistol, so I was pulling off an average of 15 damage a second. Only have to reload every third second, too.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 16:49 by rekenne »
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Styro

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Re: [H|98%|YAVP] First win on hard for me - pistols!
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2009, 16:58 »

Marksmanship runs are my favorite way to play DoomRL, so this topic is very interesting to me.

Minimum damage dealable is 1, so you probably are better off this way anyway.

Disclaimer: These numbers are all from the wiki, so they may or may not be correct. My guess is that they are at least mostly correct.

Average base pistol damage is 5 (2d4). Cyberdemon has an armor rating of 4. So if you have no damage mods or SoG ranks then half of the time your damage will be reduced to 1 and you will do an average damage of 1.625 per shot.

With 1 level of SoB, your average goes up to 2.25. 2 levels makes it 3.0625, and 3 levels makes it 4.

So each level of SoB makes a significant difference. Adding Damage Mods has an identical effect. And against enemies with less armor they would have an even greater effect.

Out of sheer curiosity, how fast can you shoot an Advanced Pistol (S4)?

Base fire time for a pistol is 1 sec.

SoG: firing time reduced 20%

Fin: firing time is reduced by 10%

Speed mod: firing time is reduced by 10%

Base * SoG 3

1 sec * (.8 * .8 * .8) = .512 sec

Base * SoG 3 * Fin 3

1 sec * (.8 * .8 * .8) * (.9 * .9 * .9) = .373 sec

Base * SoG 3 * Fin 3 * Speed Mod 3

1 sec * (.8 * .8 * .8) * (.9 * .9 * .9) * (.9 * .9 * .9) = .272 sec

If we use these numbers and combine them with the above, we can get some damage/sec information.

If we have a soldier with a pistol, SoG 3, and the option of adding either 3 damage mods or 3 speed mods to his pistol, what is his best option?

Base:
4 dmg / .512 sec = 7.8 dmg/sec (8 dmg / .512 sec = 15.6 dmg/sec against unarmored)

Damage option:
7 dmg / .512 sec = 13.672 dmg/sec (11 dmg / .512 sec = 21.48 dmg/sec against unarmored)

Speed option:
4 dmg / .373 sec = 10.7 dmg/sec (8 dmg / .373 sec = 21.45 dmg/sec against unarmored)

It looks like on average you are always better off using damage mods. Damage mods give you a significant advantage against armored opponents. As the enemy armor decreases, the advantage diminishes.

It would be a little trickier to determine whether speed mods or reload mods would be better for DPS, but my instinct is that the reload mod would be better. Since your speed is already up due to SoG, there is a point of diminishing returns with more speed mods. However, if you have not taken any Reloader traits then you get the full benefit from a reload mod. I would probably use a magazine mod over a reload, though.

My assumption is similar with accuracy mods. Since pistols start out so accurate already I don't know if they are worth using more than once.

Of course, this is assuming that you have your pick of which mods to apply. More often you just have to use what you get. But looking at the numbers, I think I will still take almost any mod over a speed mod when given the chance.
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skarczew

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Re: [H|98%|YAVP] First win on hard for me - pistols!
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2009, 02:16 »

Quote
Also - Yeah. Cybie with pistols is surprisingly easy. I was expecting hell, too, but it wasn't nearly so bad. I had a Blaster and a double damage modded pistol, so I was pulling off an average of 15 damage a second. Only have to reload every third second, too.
Imho it was because of the Blaster. Without any unique weapon and the damage mods it tends to be tricky.

Quote
It looks like on average you are always better off using damage mods. Damage mods give you a significant advantage against armored opponents. As the enemy armor decreases, the advantage diminishes.
Quoted for truth.

Quote
Since pistols start out so accurate already I don't know if they are worth using more than once.
I usually end up having one accuracy mod - helps a lot in early game (in late too - for shotting targets outside FOV).
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raekuul

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Re: [H|98%|YAVP] First win on hard for me - pistols!
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2009, 08:24 »

Whoa there styro, that's more than I really wanted. Nice to know, but more than I wanted.

Damage mods on pistols increase range without raising the minimum, though, so D3 Pistol would be 2d7. Higher damage, yes, but higher variance and less-frequent maximums as well. Versus cybie, this could make a big difference. Disregard that.

Plus, I think that rounding is downward, so the .03 difference isn't going to be making a significant difference against unarmored.

Oh, and for your formulations... no, wait, we're assuming an advanced pistol, so it's a pointless argument...

So - DG Blaster + A.Pistol (S3) with Finesse 3, SoG 3 (That's CL 7 right here - we'll need reloader 3 to stand a chance, so CL 10)
This would be:
1.2*[0.5*(0.8*0.8*0.8)*(0.9*0.9*0.9) + 1.0*(0.8*0.8*0.8)*(0.9*0.9*0.9)*(0.9*0.9*0.9)]/2 = 0.2752330752 - somewhere between 4 shots per second and 3 shots per second, closer to 4. At this point, the reload time becomes prohibitive, which means we'd be sacrificing the almost essential Eagle eye and Cateye upgrades (CL 13 and 15, respectively) to maximize firing speed.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 08:32 by raekuul »
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ParaSait

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Re: [H|98%|YAVP] First win on hard for me - pistols!
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2009, 09:36 »

Quote
In some cases I'd even say Peanuts.
Thermonuclear sth.
No, pistols. And of course with the right traits and mods. =)
Thermies are for cowards. =P
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Styro

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Re: [H|98%|YAVP] First win on hard for me - pistols!
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2009, 10:40 »

Whoa there styro, that's more than I really wanted. Nice to know, but more than I wanted.

Eh, I can't help myself. :)

So - DG Blaster + A.Pistol (S3) with Finesse 3, SoG 3 (That's CL 7 right here - we'll need reloader 3 to stand a chance, so CL 10)
This would be:
1.2*[0.5*(0.8*0.8*0.8)*(0.9*0.9*0.9) + 1.0*(0.8*0.8*0.8)*(0.9*0.9*0.9)*(0.9*0.9*0.9)]/2 = 0.2752330752 - somewhere between 4 shots per second and 3 shots per second, closer to 4. At this point, the reload time becomes prohibitive, which means we'd be sacrificing the almost essential Eagle eye and Cateye upgrades (CL 13 and 15, respectively) to maximize firing speed.

You are correct that the damage mod's advantage is less when dual-wielding.

Here are the numbers for dual-wielding the Advanced Pistol and a normal pistol for a character with SoG 3 and Fin 3.

Speed:
1.2*[0.5*(0.8*0.8*0.8)*(0.9*0.9*0.9) + 1.0*(0.8*0.8*0.8)*(0.9*0.9*0.9)*(0.9*0.9*0.9)]/2 = 0.2752330752
8 dmg / .275 sec = 29.1 dmg/sec (16 dmg / .275 sec = 58.1 dmg/sec against unarmored)

Damage:
1.2*[0.5*(0.8*0.8*0.8)*(0.9*0.9*0.9) + 1.0*(0.8*0.8*0.8)*(0.9*0.9*0.9)]/2 = 0.3359232
11 dmg / .336 sec = 32.7 dmg/sec (19 dmg / .373 sec = 56.6 dmg/sec against unarmored)

So when you are dual-wielding with full SoG and Fin, they are nearly identical with a slight edge for Damage mods vs armored opponents and a slight edge for Speed mods vs unarmored opponents.

Since pistol-wielders end up taking Dualgunner, in the end it really does not make much of a difference which type of mods you choose to apply.

At that point you are burning through your ammo every 1.5 - 2 seconds, so your reload time of 1.2 seconds is the limiting factor in DPS.
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Re: [H|98%|YAVP] First win on hard for me - pistols!
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2009, 23:01 »

Thanks, Styro! I don't know what raekuul's complaining about - I love good statistics in the morning! XD

Anyway, I think this gives the edge to Damage mods - even if Speed mods had an overall edge, Damage mods make ammo usage more efficient. That would probably make it a tie. However, as they're pretty evenly matched, I'd take Damage and never miss the Backpack on AoMr.
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