DRL > Discussion
My Dream Patch Notes v1.0
LoneVandal:
--- Quote from: Mr_Dead on March 03, 2009, 07:53 ---
--- Quote from: Malek Deneith on March 03, 2009, 04:20 ---I admit that I didn't have time, nor patience to read the topic throughly (posts with lenght of 2 screens make my eyes bleed), but I read enough to get the general idea, and my opinion is... no. Just no (though I admit that there might be usefull ideas to salvage there).
Reason?
Very simple: Such a change that you propose would change DoomRL from a game that I know and got used to in into a campletly different game which, honestly, I probably wouldn't bother to play anymore
--- End quote ---
I agree with Malek...the game would change to dramatically for it to really be the DoomRL we've been playing for awhile now. However...this kind of makes me think of Angband in a way that Angband has quite a few varients 'Cthangband for one' made that are different from the original. Perhaps instead of thinking of these suggestions as a dream patch for V1.0 DoomRL you might want to think of them for a varient of DoomRL 'if Kornel allows people to...forgot whether he is going to or not'.
Aside from that...
- Sneaking isn't something I'd put in a game like this. After all...with so much gunfire going around all the hellspawn are going to know that you're there and be cautious. If they don't smell you first ;).
- Making all weapons d3 really doesn't seem rougelike to me. I expect to see different sided dice in roguelikes, period.
- Removing Ironman and making it so there's no way to increase your max hp really isn't a good idea. I have been killed while at the normal 50 hp with red armor in one turn before...from a single mancubus and a barrel :S. Actually killed isn't the proper way to say it...more like blown all over the place.
- Quick recovery is a no. Its to easily exploitable for you to just sit on a clear level or in a corner somewhere and get back to 100%.
- Reverse Engineer is way to powerful. There's a ton of items just laying around out there...particularly if an arch-vile is near formers and stays out of sight.
- Halving the healing effects of the small healing globe would really kill you in UV/N!.
- If computer maps were indestructable...yes.
- Inv/SC/MS all can be on the same map in Doom and appear multiple times...it would just seem undoomish to not be able to here. Same with Berserk packs.
- Personally, I'd like to see Stimpacks *heals 10%*, Small medkits *heals 25%*, and Large Medkits *heals full*...or maybe taking something out of the old Strife game...Surgery kit healing full and large medkit healing 50%. Come to think of it...where the hell did I put that Strife cd...erm off topic :S
- I kinda like the armor making you move slower thing...*Watches many forum members shoot him*
- Protection mod for boots is very, very useful in deep A100.
- Self reparing bad for same reason Quick recovery is.
- Medical Augment mod...I like the instant healing idea. Doubling berserk is overpowered *quad berserk for N! :D*.
- Spike Treads eliminating knockback is overpowered.
- Boot Mobility should stay the way it is...20% is overpowered.
- Accuracy mod...Why the hell would I want to narrow the cone of fire for a shotty?
- Magazine mod, Being able to hold more rockets in the rocket launcher would be nice, but a double shotgun is a double shotgun, should not be able to load more then two shells into it at once period.
One other thing to point out...Getting a unique and picking good traits may allow you to win easily on ITYTD, NTR, and maybe even HMP...but UV and particularly N! doesn't allow this. You still have to play smart and even then you can get creamed if you're not lucky. If you can win every UV game you've ever played, you make Blade look like a newbie.
--- End quote ---
All of these changes would need to be playtested for balance and many would need tweaked in some way before it would feel "right". Spiked Treads reducing knockback by 100% might be too good, maybe 50%-75% would be more appropriate and still desirable. The point is, it should not be an easy decision choosing which mods you use in any situation (as it is right now). They should all be powerful relative to each other. Also, the notes are just a rough draft, so take it with a grain of salt. Some things that do warrant further explanation:
Why would you not allow for a character to become better at getting close to monsters without being noticed (the point of Demon Stalker) based on source material, but allow for extremely random damage, which has nothing to do with the real Doom games? The leading cause of death for melee characters seems to be getting knocked back while trying to approach a monster, while actual melee combat is *relatively* low-risk even without any defensive traits. The bit about monsters that can smell you is a great idea though to keep a Demon Stalker melee player on their toes. Also I'm not talking about true "stealth" like other roguelikes / rpgs, as you would never be able to get closer than 3 squares without them seeing you. Perhaps though, there could be monsters you really DO NOT want to melee (they cause extra armor loss or do a huge amount of damage), that can't smell you, and sneaking past them as a melee character would be the best strategy to advance.
Not having Ironman is compensated for with Rocket Jockey (-40% AoE dmg sustained, at max), which would have been perfect to have in the situation you described. Knife Fighter (+30% melee dodge iirc, at max) would help melee players deal with increased monster melee acc / dmg. For melee characters having Knife Fighter would be a viable choice vs. Tough As Nails early on to help deal with increased danger at melee range.
Smaller cone of fire on a Shotgun would negate the ranged damage penalty as more pellets would hit the same target instead of spreading out like crazy. This would allow a Shotgun specialist to swap shotguns based on the situation, making it a much more viable specialty in the face of Chainguns/Plasma +EE/CE/SoB.
Double Berserk duration wouldn't really be overpowered, it is the effect itself which is overpowered, and I proposed nerfing the bonuses by like 1/2 if you read the whole notes. The thing about limiting item spawns has more to do with the size of the maps, which are tiny compared to most real Doom maps. They can have more redundant items as they can have 300+ monsters in a single level (not counting ressurections by Archviles). I also think some items should always survive explosions, such as weapons themselves (not ammo), armor, health globes, and other instant use powerups.
I was thinking about this exploding ammo bit just and what you said about reverse engineering being too powerful (I agree, there are WAY too many useless weapons lying around after you clear a level). Well, what if weapons had individual parts which degraded with use and required replacement for your gun to continue functioning? This could replace the current mod system by allowing you to truly customize you weapons based on the parts you find. Dismantling a weapon for its parts would become a standard command and not require a trait to use, of course, but maybe with traits (or a real skill based system) you could increase your chances of recovering higher quality parts, thus improving the performance of your gun. Things like, scopes, barrels, stocks, ammo feeders, trigger mechanisms could influence things like critical hits, accuracy, melee dmg from attacking while holding a gun, reload speed, and firing speed respectively. Since individual parts could be damage you could say an explosion has a chance of cooking off explosive ammo inside a gun (plasma based weapons would be immune to this) and damaging / destroying it if caught in a blast.
The more I think about it, changing clip sizes really doesn't even need to be a part of the game, and while you can make a double barrel shotgun behave however you want it to in a video game, I can sort of agree that the changes I proposed don't feel "right" with respect to the source material. The shotty / double shotty were an awesome guns, and I just hope they become awesome in Doom RL, too.
Finally, the lack of a time limit needs addressed honestly. I mentioned above, the game could afford to have much bigger and interesting levels as a result of no time limit, OR one could be introduced. I like Crawl's mutation theme, which would fit in well here considering all the toxic sludge and demonic energy surrounding you at all times. Maybe if you take too long to finish the game you will develop harmful mutations over time, which would allow for the self-repair nanites / quick recovery abilities (assuming the current trait system would still be used) to not be overpowered.
Kao:
--- Quote from: Mr_Dead on March 03, 2009, 07:53 ---
- Accuracy mod...Why the hell would I want to narrow the cone of fire for a shotty?
--- End quote ---
1. to increase the effective range of a shooty.
2. Narrowing the cone = more concentrated damage = hits less enemies but hits them much harder, also = shooty being easier to use in narrow places and less buckshot hitting walls instead of enemies.
Although on this point, I think that there should be a separate "mod" for that, either a choke or a duckbill , it should also be easily detachable. (Works more like a silencer than a DoomRL mod) In case anyone wonders why it should be detachable, one simple reason.
- Sometimes you really need the spread, especially in large rooms filled with enemies. On the other hand you start cursing the spread of a DS in a narrow corridor between large rooms.
Kornel Kisielewicz:
Just a quick note as I have a free moment - LoneVandal, many things you suggest to "fix" are very conscious and throught-through design decisions. Examples :
1) the lack of health and armor regeneration ( with the latter being only broken by two uniques ) is BECAUSE of the lack of time limit, and to maintain the dynamics of the game ( constant move, because there's no reason to stay in place ). The same goes for sneaking.
2) lack of classes ( and skills per se ) is too allow a very quick jump-in to the game -- because it's INTENDED to be a coffee break.
3) perks instead of skills are to offer the player an immidate sense of achievement. Some of the traits break that rule, but generally I wanted traits to be a immidate "hurray" gain, instead of tweaking some invisible numbers.
4) uniques and levers serve to add chaos explicitly -- to make make games surprising and not always the same
BTW, "boss" monsters are planned.
DoomRL games are meant to be streamlined, quick, chaotic and deadly. The true challange is to make it more interesting and allow more options without sacrificing that.
* Kornel Kisielewicz goes back in hiding, mumbling something about a started DoomRL 2 codebase...
Mr_Dead:
--- Quote from: LoneVandal on March 03, 2009, 09:12 ---All of these changes would need to be playtested for balance and many would need tweaked in some way before it would feel "right". Spiked Treads reducing knockback by 100% might be too good, maybe 50%-75% would be more appropriate and still desirable. The point is, it should not be an easy decision choosing which mods you use in any situation (as it is right now). They should all be powerful relative to each other. Also, the notes are just a rough draft, so take it with a grain of salt. Some things that do warrant further explanation:
Why would you not allow for a character to become better at getting close to monsters without being noticed (the point of Demon Stalker) based on source material, but allow for extremely random damage, which has nothing to do with the real Doom games? The leading cause of death for melee characters seems to be getting knocked back while trying to approach a monster, while actual melee combat is *relatively* low-risk even without any defensive traits. The bit about monsters that can smell you is a great idea though to keep a Demon Stalker melee player on their toes. Also I'm not talking about true "stealth" like other roguelikes / rpgs, as you would never be able to get closer than 3 squares without them seeing you. Perhaps though, there could be monsters you really DO NOT want to melee (they cause extra armor loss or do a huge amount of damage), that can't smell you, and sneaking past them as a melee character would be the best strategy to advance.
Not having Ironman is compensated for with Rocket Jockey (-40% AoE dmg sustained, at max), which would have been perfect to have in the situation you described. Knife Fighter (+30% melee dodge iirc, at max) would help melee players deal with increased monster melee acc / dmg. For melee characters having Knife Fighter would be a viable choice vs. Tough As Nails early on to help deal with increased danger at melee range.
Smaller cone of fire on a Shotgun would negate the ranged damage penalty as more pellets would hit the same target instead of spreading out like crazy. This would allow a Shotgun specialist to swap shotguns based on the situation, making it a much more viable specialty in the face of Chainguns/Plasma +EE/CE/SoB.
Double Berserk duration wouldn't really be overpowered, it is the effect itself which is overpowered, and I proposed nerfing the bonuses by like 1/2 if you read the whole notes. The thing about limiting item spawns has more to do with the size of the maps, which are tiny compared to most real Doom maps. They can have more redundant items as they can have 300+ monsters in a single level (not counting ressurections by Archviles). I also think some items should always survive explosions, such as weapons themselves (not ammo), armor, health globes, and other instant use powerups.
I was thinking about this exploding ammo bit just and what you said about reverse engineering being too powerful (I agree, there are WAY too many useless weapons lying around after you clear a level). Well, what if weapons had individual parts which degraded with use and required replacement for your gun to continue functioning? This could replace the current mod system by allowing you to truly customize you weapons based on the parts you find. Dismantling a weapon for its parts would become a standard command and not require a trait to use, of course, but maybe with traits (or a real skill based system) you could increase your chances of recovering higher quality parts, thus improving the performance of your gun. Things like, scopes, barrels, stocks, ammo feeders, trigger mechanisms could influence things like critical hits, accuracy, melee dmg from attacking while holding a gun, reload speed, and firing speed respectively. Since individual parts could be damage you could say an explosion has a chance of cooking off explosive ammo inside a gun (plasma based weapons would be immune to this) and damaging / destroying it if caught in a blast.
The more I think about it, changing clip sizes really doesn't even need to be a part of the game, and while you can make a double barrel shotgun behave however you want it to in a video game, I can sort of agree that the changes I proposed don't feel "right" with respect to the source material. The shotty / double shotty were an awesome guns, and I just hope they become awesome in Doom RL, too.
Finally, the lack of a time limit needs addressed honestly. I mentioned above, the game could afford to have much bigger and interesting levels as a result of no time limit, OR one could be introduced. I like Crawl's mutation theme, which would fit in well here considering all the toxic sludge and demonic energy surrounding you at all times. Maybe if you take too long to finish the game you will develop harmful mutations over time, which would allow for the self-repair nanites / quick recovery abilities (assuming the current trait system would still be used) to not be overpowered.
--- End quote ---
About the spike treads, boots already have an inital lowering of knockback. That's more the reason why I think the mod would pretty much be useless. Furthermore, I wouldn't want an extremely high knockback protection. Knockback can help you get out of a really bad situtaion *provided you survive the inital attack(s)*.
Good point about demon stalker for melee builds, though it makes me bring up the point that this game isn't like most roguelikes *at least the ones I've played* its based off Doom, a game where you use EVERY weapon, not just limiting yourself to one or two. I'm a real Doom fanatic and i'm a bit more biased for DoomRL to be more doomish then RL...which is why I like seeing alot of suggestions...broadens my view, not to mention allows good debating like this :).
I forgot about your Rocket Jockey idea to be honest after I browsed over it a few times :S...in some cases it would be better, in others Ironman would be *When Spideys Attack! A horror movie coming to your location!...or...Pain elemental cavern anyone?*. Plus factoring in the armor reduction could make Rocket Jockey overpowered. I don't think I've ever seen a monster above Hell knight miss more than 1 out of 4 melee strikes...if even that. Then again, I always play on UV/N!, where accuracy is higher for your enemies if I remember correctly. Btw...what is that...shady thing lurking in the corner...*pokes shady thing* ;)
The accuracy thing for the shotty just really doesn't appeal to me...For most people who stick to builds it works I guess, but I don't stick to one weapon, I use most of them. I stick to the combat shotty for groups of weak/mid hellspawn or even large groups of tougher foes, rockets for Arch-Viles and what they're ressing, CG for the base weapon, and PG for when I really need frying power.
About 2x berserk duration...even with the nerfed effects, +2 damage reduction with your 2 TaN and your improved Protection modded Red armor '+6'...=10. Still to powerful to have the double duration, particularly with Rocket Jockey. Map size may be alot smaller...but you're also dealing with the fact that you can't just run circles around the monsters like you can in Doom.
Interesting idea. As Kornel said though...its a coffee break game. If a varient is made however...as I said....interesting idea :P.
Kornel answered the last two pretty well. He is the shady lurking creator in the corner after all.
LoneVandal:
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on March 03, 2009, 12:36 ---Just a quick note as I have a free moment - LoneVandal, many things you suggest to "fix" are very conscious and throught-through design decisions. Examples :
1) the lack of health and armor regeneration ( with the latter being only broken by two uniques ) is BECAUSE of the lack of time limit, and to maintain the dynamics of the game ( constant move, because there's no reason to stay in place ). The same goes for sneaking.
2) lack of classes ( and skills per se ) is too allow a very quick jump-in to the game -- because it's INTENDED to be a coffee break.
3) perks instead of skills are to offer the player an immidate sense of achievement. Some of the traits break that rule, but generally I wanted traits to be a immidate "hurray" gain, instead of tweaking some invisible numbers.
4) uniques and levers serve to add chaos explicitly -- to make make games surprising and not always the same
BTW, "boss" monsters are planned.
DoomRL games are meant to be streamlined, quick, chaotic and deadly. The true challange is to make it more interesting and allow more options without sacrificing that.
* Kornel Kisielewicz goes back in hiding, mumbling something about a started DoomRL 2 codebase...
--- End quote ---
You're right that the stuff I started getting into in the last few posts are more about deepening the game, I wasn't considering keeping it "coffee break" styled (sorry). I guess a lot of those kinds of changes would be more of an offshoot like ZAngband or something ultimately.
I can't agree though that uniques and levers make the game better. There is no reward worth the risk (unavoidable death) of pulling an unidentified lever, or worth the perk point spent on ID'ing them.
Uniques just make the game easy, if we can assume you've balanced the game to be winnable without them (I believe it is). Yeah it is real cool when you find one, and it is good that you can't scum to generate them, but the other thing they do is make your mod system irrelevant along with Whiz Kid, and Finesse is already a very low priority perk for most builds.
While limiting myself to things I'd love to see without taking DooMRL away from the "coffee break" status, I guess I'm left with:
More monster variety / behavior variety (no more riskless rocket launcher Baron kills) / attack variety as you get deeper in the complex / hell.
More risk when engaging monsters in melee (as mentioned, melee combat is one of the least cited reasons someone dies in AoB), and a new perk or two to help deal with it.
Less "no brainer" decisions with regard to the item mod system, 3 good choices for armor / boot mods would be ideal.
More advanced weapon drops instead of uniques, and a little more zazz from weapon mods.
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