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[Hipster Scumbag]

I've been hoping to see the Cacodemon and lava/acid get a bit of a nerf.  At present, the Cacodemon does more damage than a Hell Knight and has a bigger splash.  Canonically, I feel like the Cacodemon's attack has always been easy to dodge, but in DoomRL they consistently pound you with merciless accuracy.  While 40 health is about right for DoomRL-Doom scaling, shotgun rounds seem to slide right off them and going toe-to-toe with chaingun or chainsaw is asking for a Pyhrric victory.  I think the game would be more true to source material (and a little more fun!) if that big stupid red tomato had less splash and less accuracy.

Also, I can't really understand why floor damage was increased in the last patch - Doom floors did about 5 damage per week.  The buffed floor damage is irritating because it has made pulling levers exceedingly dangerous, you can lose a bucket of health trying to pick up an item that was hiding lava, and getting to the secret rooms in  Chained Court is not worth it anymore.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this, Kornel!

[Dervis]

In the original Doom, the Caco had equivalent firepower to the Hell Knight, only thing that made it weaker was the fact that it was easy to chainsaw/chaingun lock. Only thing i think you're right is that Caco accuracy is a bit on the high side.

About floor damage, it's MUCH better than last patch. They kill you if you stand there long, and damage isn't that high if running.

[Hipster Scumbag]

In the original Doom, the Caco had equivalent firepower to the Hell Knight, only thing that made it weaker was the fact that it was easy to chainsaw/chaingun lock. Only thing i think you're right is that Caco accuracy is a bit on the high side.

From the Doom wiki:

Cacodemon
Melee damage: 10-60
Missile damage: 5-40
Missile speed: 10 map units per tic (350 map units per second)

Hell Knight
Melee damage:    10-80
Missile damage: 8-64
Missile speed: 15 map units per tic (525 map units per second)

So you can see that the Cacodemon's attacks are significantly weaker and much easier to dodge than those of the Hell Knight.

[Dervis]

I still think Cacodemons are ok in DoomRL. If anything i'd lower their accuracy and their melee damage.

DoomRL is based on Doom, it's not supposed to be faithful to everything on Doom. Actually i find it funny that you chose the cacodemon out of all the stuff in the game.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Well, this is the first complaint of this nature. Maybe however, the Caco's missiles should be made more dodgeable (as opposed to less accurate).

[Hipster Scumbag]

Well, this is the first complaint of this nature. Maybe however, the Caco's missiles should be made more dodgeable (as opposed to less accurate).

I think it'd be a step in the right direction (even though timing a dodge is a pain) - would make combat shotgun more viable against them, instead of making the chaingun really the only way to deal with them.  You don't think the damage and splash are too much, though?

[Generic]

I find it pretty easy to murder a cacodemon with a combat shotgun, actually. Are you running while you fight him?

[Melon]

I find it pretty easy to murder a cacodemon with a combat shotgun, actually. Are you running while you fight him?

Are you playing on easy difficulty?

[Generic]

Does it matter if you don't get hit? :P

[Kg]

Agree, it's pretty easy but you have 20% HP left :)

[Hipster Scumbag]

I find it pretty easy to murder a cacodemon with a combat shotgun, actually. Are you running while you fight him?

The dodge bonus from running is not enough to keep a caco from pounding you with strangely accurate fireballs that also have a ludicrous amount of cover-destroying and item-destroying splash damage.  I like the new walking/running system much more than the old ADOM-inspired tactics system, but let's keep in mind that the player still has rather limited control over his ability to dodge, especially when the projectile has a splash radius of 2(!)

I just really think the Cacodemon attack should not be more powerful than that of the Hell Knight, for the obvious reasons.

[Kg]

Cacos are bad, I completed Hell's Arena only one time I think, the rest was like 'oh 2 cacos.. ok here we go let's go I'm dead oh no'

[Frankosity]

I agree with this thread. Cacodemons are easily my most feared enemy until late game, they're incredibly accurate and their fireballs tear you to pieces.

[Hipster Scumbag]

Here are a few quotes from the other roguelike board I post on:

"the only thing i really really hate is the lava damage because levers are literally worthless unless you are at full health and near the room exit (within like 3 steps)"

"tell him to dial down how stupidly powerful cacodemons are.  also lava floors"

"cacos are retarded in rl but in real doom theyre so easy, just tell them to make it so cacos fire at where you were one or two turns ago and itll be just like doom"

"nerf floor damage because i dont think ive ever died from floor damage in doom or even taken any kind of damage that actually mattered. like maybe -2% at a time."

[Frankosity]

I don't know how I managed to miss the second premise of this thread topic, but yeah, I'm registering my support for lowering floor damage. As it is, all it's ever done in my games is make some levels impossible to complete.

[Hipster Scumbag]

I don't know how I managed to miss the second premise of this thread topic, but yeah, I'm registering my support for lowering floor damage. As it is, all it's ever done in my games is make some levels impossible to complete.

I can understand that Kornel wants to make the new Envirosuits useful, but I don't think the envirosuit is a particularly important item, and the new floor damage is infuriating.

[Melon]

I don't know how I managed to miss the second premise of this thread topic, but yeah, I'm registering my support for lowering floor damage. As it is, all it's ever done in my games is make some levels impossible to complete.

I can understand that Kornel wants to make the new Envirosuits useful, but I don't think the envirosuit is a particularly important item, and the new floor damage is infuriating.

I also don't think but know that envirosuit is an important item.

[Hipster Scumbag]

I also don't think but know that envirosuit is an important item.

That's preposterous.  In Doom, the envirosuit was a way to get you from point A to B while avoiding about 10% of floor damage on some of Doom's least fun maps.  In DoomRL, we don't have specifically designed maps besides the special floors, and in general since DoomRL's maps are more freeform and open and less linear, the envirosuit doesn't make that much sense from a perspective of map design & gameplay.

IN ANY CASE, you have to admit that 10% damage per turn from standing in acid is absolutely ludicrous.  It's frustrating because it can make floors unwinnable and it denies the player the opportunity to explore and fight.  Hurtfloors are irritating in Doom and they are infuriating in DoomRL.

[Vestin]

IN ANY CASE, you have to admit that 10% damage per turn from standing in acid is absolutely ludicrous.

Standing... in acid... should not hurt you very much 0_o?
I'm sorry - it's just those tiny bits of common sense that refuse to leave leave my mind ;)...

[Hipster Scumbag]

IN ANY CASE, you have to admit that 10% damage per turn from standing in acid is absolutely ludicrous.

Standing... in acid... should not hurt you very much 0_o?
I'm sorry - it's just those tiny bits of common sense that refuse to leave leave my mind ;)...

Have you ever played Doom?  Classic Doom?  Do you realize that it's bad design to make these things that add frustration, not challenge?  Acid does not bring a lot to the board vis a vis gameplay & tactics, and 10% damage per step is ridiculous.

[Frankosity]

The only time hurtfloors have had any tactical value in my games is when enemies inadvertantly spawn on them and die.

[Melon]

The only time hurtfloors have had any tactical value in my games is when enemies inadvertantly spawn on them and die.

Try playing angel of marksmanship and hit those mancubi back to lava. Yay! And arch-villes? Oh yeah, hit them so hard (it is possible on AoM) that they got pushed into acid.

This also has a drawback, because if you are not carefull, YOU are the one that can get hit and pushed into lava/acid.

LAVA/ACID must stay!

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Implemented - Cacodemon missiles now will be easier to sidestep, and be slightly less accurate.

[Hipster Scumbag]

Implemented - Cacodemon missiles now will be easier to sidestep, and be slightly less accurate.

Thanks - looking forward to the next build.

[Jewmander]

Is there any conceivable reason for the caco projectiles doing as much damage as a Hell Knight's?

I have to stress again that the hurtfloors need to be dialed back a lot.  After all, we only take the best aspects of our animes to implement in DoomRL.  Shouldn't we do the same with Doom mechanics?

[Lowtierhero]

I personally don't find Cacos to me much of a bother (especially since they aren't that common)

Its the Revenants that scare me...

[Hipster Scumbag]

I personally don't find Cacos to me much of a bother (especially since they aren't that common)

Its the Revenants that scare me...

Revenants are supposed to be scary, though.  The cacodemon is supposed to be a stepping stone between the low-health-low-damage imps and the high-health-high-damage hell knight.  Why it actually does more damage than the hell knight is beyond me.

[Kg]

Yea, Cacos in Doom were rather easy enemies, just pwn them with shotgun, and in doomRL they're sometimes shooting very fast, like imps, you reload and bam 3 shots from 1 imp and you're dead.

[raekuul]

This thread has succeeded in returning me to the arena. Good job.

[Hipster Scumbag]

This thread has succeeded in returning me to the arena. Good job.

Lol, I was running diagonally at a cacodemon in the Arena with my combat shotgun just now and he scored a direct hit on three diagonal dodge-strafes in a row, doing ~45% health and ~40% armor.

[Kg]

HAHA owned! I had situation like this: 'ok I'll only peep just right here ok here we go..' I made only 1 step, then i appeared and BAM 2 shots.... ok so I guess I'll shoot him with pistol.. 1 SHOT and then BAM i shoots another ball.. omg almost like mancubus except all of his balls hit me -.-