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[Hipster Scumbag]

Well, do they?  Certainly don't see any whizkid or intuition YAAPs in the Postmortem forum...  I figure they're almost worthless compared to EE/SoB or HR/SM.

[Dervis]

Finesse isn't as bad as people make it, still there are a lot of traits that are superior to it. People usually get finesse to go for juggler or whizkid. Still only after lvl 8 ofc.

Whizkid used to be quite good, now it's a bit meh because it's much harder to find enough mods. You'll only see whizkid on AoMr and Ao100 now. When/if the multipurpose mods get implemented it will be good again. (People used to find 15-20 weapon mods on one run, now if you find 10 you're lucky)

Intuition x 3 is so powerful it's game breaking. I, and other people on the forums, choose not to take it because the game loses fun when you do (and also because cat's eye 1 makes a good job for fewer traits).

I actually think the traits are quite well balanced, with only a few exceptions leaning towards overpoweredness. There are NO useless traits in Doomrl in my opinion.

[Gargulec]

Well, I actually toy a bit with Fin on AoMr runs, going like that SoG->SoG->DG->SoG->Fin->Fin. It's funny, for it works like some kind of chaingun analog- being able to empty your magazines between caco's shots is nice.
BTW: Does anybody know how firing time is counted- it stacks that 10% making you fire your pistols at 80% of normal time with Fin(2) or it multiplies, so it is firing time x 90% x 90% which would make you fire at 81% normal time, if I am not terribly wrong with my calculations, which is likely.

[Hipster Scumbag]

I used to use Intuition a fair bit as a youngin', but while knowing where to find which powerups where is great, I only used Intuition 3 for kiting dudes with my rocket launcher.  It didn't really have the necessary stopping power of a cateye/SoB build for me.  Finesse seems pretty worthless to me, though - so I can fire a pistol in 0.9 seconds instead of 1.0 seconds, big deal.

[Dervis]

@Gargulec - Similar bonus add up while different bonus multiply.
3 SoG = -0,6 fire time
2 Finesse = -0,2 fire time
SoG + Fin = 0,4*0,8=0,32 (-0,68 fire time)

@Hipster
Speed traits like finesse are a bit underrated. Acting faster helps prevent monsters from having multiple actions and this is more important than might seem at start (Deaths because a monster gets a double move on you and decides to shoot twice are relatively common, Revenants are particularly nasty at this).

[ParaSait]

Well, I think Whizkid is an important ingredient for a FUUUN game. =)

[Generic]

My fun is blasting everything with a double shotgun. Whizkid is not blasting everything with a double shotgun. Therefore whizkid is not fun. D:

[JysusCryst]

Well, I actually toy a bit with Fin on AoMr runs, going like that SoG->SoG->DG->SoG->Fin->Fin. It's funny, for it works like some kind of chaingun analog- being able to empty your magazines between caco's shots is nice.

I would use opt for SoB x3 before Fin x2 on AoMr runs, but that's just me. Doing +3*2 damage is a little nicer than firing faster (in my humble opinion). You waste less ammo and kill the monster faster, without taking time to reload between clips.

Not to say I wouldn't use Fin in an Ao100 game where I can get that many traits. It's just not that high on my to-do list.

[Gargulec]

Well, that's interesting cassus. SoaB gives ability to deal more damage, and Fin(2) to fire faster, thus deal more damage. Well, with SoaG (3), DG and SoaB (3) you fire at 60% normal time, that's 0.6s. In 3 s period you're able to fire 5 times, and with Fin (2), you fire even faster, something like 0.4s, so in this same period you would be able to shoot 7.5 times. Assuming, that you hit with all bullets, in first case you would deal 5x(2d4+6), so on average you would deal 55 damage. In latter case, you would deal 7x(2d4+3), average- 49 dmg.

Well, SoaB seems to be better:P 

[Hipster Scumbag]

My fun is blasting everything with a double shotgun. Whizkid is not blasting everything with a double shotgun. Therefore whizkid is not fun. D:

Agreed.  Hell, everything that whizkid can do with one mod can be done to greater effect with a level in something else except for magazine mods.  Sure, whizkid is more versatile in theory, but then you're left using whatever mods you actually do find (nothing but reload & magazine mods for me).  Having to take Finesse 2 for it also doesn't help matters.

[Vestin]

My fun is blasting everything with a double shotgun. Whizkid is not blasting everything with a double shotgun. Therefore whizkid is not fun. D:

The ocean is blue. The sky is not the ocean. Therefore - the sky is not blue.

Your logic is flawed as hell xP.

[JysusCryst]

Well, SoaB seems to be better:P  

Thanks for doing the math to prove it so I didn't have to. ^^

EDIT: Also, pistols only have 6 shots before reload, so you'd have to calculate that in there too. So SoB is undoubtedly better.

[Dervis]

Regarding the dualgunner discussion:
Regular 2d4 pistols
SoG3 + DG + Fin2 = 2x8 dam / 0,384 sec = 96 damage in 2,304 sec = 41,7 dam / sec
- with reload (+2 sec) = 22,3 dam / sec
SoG3 + DG + SoaB2 = 2x10 dam / 0,48 sec = 120 damage in 2,88 sec = 41,7 dam / sec
- with reload (+2 sec) = 24,6 dam / sec

They're more or less even, with SoaB having a small advantage when reloads are needed. High damage pistols (Trigun/Jackal) will favour Finesse while High speed pistols (GCB/Blaster) will favour SoaB.

What i usually do actually is take finesse and head for whizkid when i have regular guns. If i have an unique i just don't bother and take defensive traits.

[Generic]

My fun is blasting everything with a double shotgun. Whizkid is not blasting everything with a double shotgun. Therefore whizkid is not fun. D:

The ocean is blue. The sky is not the ocean. Therefore - the sky is not blue.

Your logic is flawed as hell xP.

I intended that. :P

[raekuul]

Next time I play a whizkid AoMr game, I'm gonna steal all those reload mods you didn't use. And all those magazine mods, too.

I'm really all about using speed, but that's because the game actually favors using more bullets than less - especially against armor-bearing enemies - because you will always deal at least one point of damage if you hit. Granted, this strategy is probably why I can't get much farther than halfway in AoMr.

[ThrustVectoring]

Whats being missed a bit is the defensive advantages of firing faster.  Firing faster means you get to act again sooner, which may mean the difference between being able to move again to dodge enemy attacks or not.

Finesse is essentially hellrunner for when you are shooting at things.

[Zi]

One major downside to whizkid is that finding an advanced weapon of the type you're already working with is really darn rare.  I've played >400 games and have seen maybe 3 advanced pistols (outside of AoMr), so I end up hoarding those damage/magazine mods, then ditching them as I need to store more and more ammo as I go deeper (in case you hit a level without any former humans/captains).

Formal request:  Either up the amount of advanced weapon spawns, or... allow Whizkid to add 4 mod slots to ALL weapons - so it's no longer the luck of the draw whether or not whizkid becomes useful.  In this case, advanced weapons are still really nice, but whizkid is useful even when one is not found.

Intuition is very nice and I use it on all of my Ao100 runs, but it takes 3 level-ups to pay off, and when you're at level 1/2, you're fighting harder monster crowds (as you go deeper) without any significant combat advantages that you might have had taking son of a bitch, tough as nails, etc, etc.

Finesse is actually very nice - ThrustVectoring has a good way of viewing how it works, although I haven't really figured out how to time my sidesteps vs firing when facing crowds (and you really don't need to sidestep when facing loners). I look at it as a +11% damage per second (ignoring reload), which is kind of nice, but is overshadowed by more useful traits.

[Hipster Scumbag]

Finesse would be useful if you liked doing math constantly to figure out when to dodge.  if there were a billion gauges for your action vs the enemies' but let's not go down that road.