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[Dervis]

Well, I've been thinking about traits and i have a few suggestions:

- Merge Finesse and Son of a Gun:
Finesse -> -10/20/30% fire time / -20/40/60% for pistols
The effect is basically the same, so having them separated doesn't add much in my opinion. (See the benefit of Reloader (1) and how easy it is to acquire Whizkid before crying about the lost +3 damage)

- Merge Shottyman with Reloader.
Reloader (1) -> -20% reload time, in addition allows you to reload Pistols, Shotguns and Combat Shotguns with a move action
Reloader (2) -> -40% reload time, in addition allows you to reload Pistols, Shotguns, Combat Shotguns, Double Shotguns and Plasma Guns with a move action
Reloader (3) -> -60% reload time, in addition allows you to reload any weapon with a move action
Reloader is so weak noone take it unless they're going for a shotty game, this way it will be useful at any number of points invested (RL with Reloader (3) will be messy).

- Add shotgun to the melee traits
Brute -> +4/8/12 melee damage, +2/4/6 shotgun damage
Berserker - Chance to go berserk on melee hit, chance to go berserk on shotgun hit (only on a large hit)
Shotguns are a bit underpowered at the moment, a damage boost and berserking ability will make for a fun change and not overpowered i think. In my opinion shotguns and melee go well together as both ignore accuracy and require short range to be effective.

This will allow a bit more versatility in trait builds and also make for a much needed space on the trait list (it's getting real crowded)



Sorry about the wall of text now. I have a few suggestions about advanced traits but won't elaborate on them so the post doesn't turn too heavy:

Advanced traits (require 2 different basic traits, 1 point):
Juggler - requires Reloader 1, Hellrunner 1
Berserker - requires Brute 1, Hellrunner 1 - Chance to go berserk on melee hit, also small chance to go berserk on shotgun hit
Dualgunner - requires Finesse 1, Reloader 1
Intuition - requires Eagle eye 1, Ironman 1 - Shows lever function and powerup locations in map (same as Intuition 2)
Whizkid - requires Tough as Nails 1, Finesse 1 - Allows 3 mods on regular weapons and armor, allows 12 mods on advanced weapons (same as Whizkid 2)
Badass - requires Ironman 1, Tough as Nails 1
Triggerhappy - requires Son of a Bitch 1, Eagle eye 1
Knockout - requires Brute 1, Son of a Bitch 1 - Melee hits deal 400 energy damage(0,4 stun), Shotgun hits deal 400 energy damage but only if they cause knockback

Master traits (require 2 advanced traits, 1 point, blocks out all other master and advanced traits)
Master traits are in the beta but i won't talk about them here :P

[Mr_Dead]

Nice ideas.  However melee does not ignore accuracy...*unless its something added in the new beta, hrm i really need to get a paypal account*

[Hipster Scumbag]

1) Finesse/Whizkid are quite underpowered, but this could become less of a problem if mods become more streamlined, versatile, and general-purpose.  I'd rather let Son of a Gun keep its damage bonus because lord knows even with SoaG 3 and a little SoaB it's still pretty hard putting down anything north of Hell Knight.  Although I would admit I'd like Marksman to play more like a "finesse" game than a gimped chaingunner, which I can see you're going for with the finesse/reloader thing, so it bears some thought & tweaking.

2) The entire point of shottyman, or the shotgun build in general, is that you can reload while dodging. It's really the only thing shotgun has going for it.  If you allow players to take the shotgun trait tree and subvert it for dodging & reloading rocket launchers or plasma rifles, there's no point to going shotgun at all anymore.  I'll agree that nobody takes reloader for anything but Shottyman, but this isn't the way to fix it.

As for item 3 I don't play enough shotgun, or use double shotgun well enough, to comment on the potential need of a damage buff trait.

I'm not opposed to the Knockout trait either since I'd like to see some form of flinching in-game, if its not already implemented....

[raekuul]

Giving Shotguns benefits from the Melee traits would end up causing a complete re-writing of the weapon behavior code. Likewise, extending Shottyman to all weapons would require the same thing.

All weapons in DoomRL can be expressed as a variant of fist, pistol, or shotgun. Each category has its own traits that benefit it. For example, while you'll never see this in normal play, the Triggerhappy trait is only effective on weapons in the Pistol Class - which includes the Chaingun and the Plasma Rifle. Likewise, Brute only helps the fist class, and Shottyman only works if you've got something in the Shotgun class.

At one point, I had it all written out what weapon ID numbers produced what effects, but I've long since lost that (unless it's still on the wiki).

[Dervis]

Giving Shotguns benefits from the Melee traits would end up causing a complete re-writing of the weapon behavior code. Likewise, extending Shottyman to all weapons would require the same thing.

All weapons in DoomRL can be expressed as a variant of fist, pistol, or shotgun. Each category has its own traits that benefit it. For example, while you'll never see this in normal play, the Triggerhappy trait is only effective on weapons in the Pistol Class - which includes the Chaingun and the Plasma Rifle. Likewise, Brute only helps the fist class, and Shottyman only works if you've got something in the Shotgun class.

I think you're exaggerating. Adding an effect to an existing trait adding +2 damage to shotguns can't be that serious.
I don't know a lot about programming nor do i know how Doomrl is coded, so i can't really tell how hard it is to make these changes. In the event that i'm wrong i apologize.

When i make suggestions i try to keep them simple, fun and balanced, and most of the time i try to use mechanics which are already in the game. I trust Kornel to able to code them in if he likes them.

[raekuul]

I'm not exaggerating, it would require a recode if we want to add more weapon classes to the weapon-specific traits. I've mucked around in the game memory while playing. I've made the Bee-Bee Gun (Sixteen-shot shotgun best used against unarmored foes) and the Golden Gun (One shot kill, poor reload time and no magazine to speak of). I've made knives that deal a hundred damage when they hit. I've seen how the traits work.

The traits rely on the weapon class. I cannot change the weapon class without crashing the game. Therefore, I believe that changing the Weapon-Specific Traits so that they effect all weapon classes would be too much of a hassle in the recoding department.

[Frankosity]

1) Finesse/Whizkid are quite underpowered, but this could become less of a problem if mods become more streamlined, versatile, and general-purpose.  I'd rather let Son of a Gun keep its damage bonus because lord knows even with SoaG 3 and a little SoaB it's still pretty hard putting down anything north of Hell Knight.  Although I would admit I'd like Marksman to play more like a "finesse" game than a gimped chaingunner, which I can see you're going for with the finesse/reloader thing, so it bears some thought & tweaking.

I definitely agree that the game would benefit from trait streamlining. You could have specialist traits for each weapon "type"- pistols, shotguns, melee, and rapid-fire, and two generalist traits for survivability and speed.

From there, you could have a trait tree of sorts-secondary traits allowing you to develop your character more specifically, but with more varied requirements than the current system. Like a secondary trait which requires a level in both the toughness and speed traits which doubles the duration you can run for, for example. If you wanted to get even more complex, you could then institute tertiary traits, which can require primary, secondary, or both.

[Vestin]

I definitely agree that the game would benefit from trait streamlining. You could have specialist traits for each weapon "type"- pistols, shotguns, melee, and rapid-fire, and two generalist traits for survivability and speed.

From there, you could have a trait tree of sorts-secondary traits allowing you to develop your character more specifically, but with more varied requirements than the current system. Like a secondary trait which requires a level in both the toughness and speed traits which doubles the duration you can run for, for example. If you wanted to get even more complex, you could then institute tertiary traits, which can require primary, secondary, or both.

I think traits should neither be too specialized nor too broadly beneficial. IMO - every trait should give you bonuses to two different types of weapons, so that you would want them to overlap in order to get proficient with using a particular kind.
To put it simpler: trait X gives bonuses to weapons A and B, while trait Y is suited for B and C and trait Z helps using C and D. Therefore - if you wish to focus on B, you take either X or Y first (which gives you the option to change your mind down the road and change focus to A or C respectfuly) and then the other one (Y or X). This gives you 2 traits worth of weapon B upgrades, while also 1 level upgrades for A and C...

[Dervis]

For traits to be fun there are 2 things that must happen:
 1 - The traits must give you a noticeable advantage for taking it.
 2 - You must be able to make options. In other words there should be several traits that improve your game-style and you shouldn't be forced to take trait A because it's so much better than all the rest.

In my opinion the basic traits in DoomRL are so specialized (so much better for determined game styles) that you feel 'forced' to take them in a certain order. According to regular strategies:
- Chaingunner - EE, SoaB, SoaB, TH, TH
- Marksman - SoG, SoG, DG, SoG, EE
- Shottyman - Shottyman (if you want this you have to take Reloader 2)
- Melee - B, B, Ber

So you don't really get to choose anything until you reach level 4-5. You should be able to want to play with alternatives and not be monstrously penalized.
My 2nd comment is that shotgun and melee builds have too few traits to choose from.
In my opinion all the basic traits should be more generalistic and offer small benefits to every game-style. Then you could let the advanced traits be really specialized.

[Frankosity]

For traits to be fun there are 2 things that must happen:
 1 - The traits must give you a noticeable advantage for taking it.
 2 - You must be able to make options. In other words there should be several traits that improve your game-style and you shouldn't be forced to take trait A because it's so much better than all the rest.

In my opinion the basic traits in DoomRL are so specialized (so much better for determined game styles) that you feel 'forced' to take them in a certain order. According to regular strategies:
- Chaingunner - EE, SoaB, SoaB, TH, TH
- Marksman - SoG, SoG, DG, SoG, EE
- Shottyman - Shottyman (if you want this you have to take Reloader 2)
- Melee - B, B, Ber

So you don't really get to choose anything until you reach level 4-5. You should be able to want to play with alternatives and not be monstrously penalized.
My 2nd comment is that shotgun and melee builds have too few traits to choose from.
In my opinion all the basic traits should be more generalistic and offer small benefits to every game-style. Then you could let the advanced traits be really specialized.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Certain trait builds are almost obectively superior, especially the Chaingunner build (although this is mostly due to the nature of rapidfire weapons, and how traits like SoaB combined with EE can make them absolutely broken) and there seem to be a few traits which aren't particularly handy by themselves, like Reloader.

[Captain Trek]

1) Finesse/Whizkid are quite underpowered, but this could become less of a problem if mods become more streamlined, versatile, and general-purpose.  I'd rather let Son of a Gun keep its damage bonus because lord knows even with SoaG 3 and a little SoaB it's still pretty hard putting down anything north of Hell Knight.  Although I would admit I'd like Marksman to play more like a "finesse" game than a gimped chaingunner, which I can see you're going for with the finesse/reloader thing, so it bears some thought & tweaking.

Well I would argue that with the right tools (I.E. Lots of mods and whizkid or a unique), if anything a pistol build is more powerful than the equivalent chaingunner... For example, in my last AoMarks game, I had Revenants that were consistantly going down in two volleys from my pistols... Meanwhile, the chances of your chaingun is taking down a Revenant in a single volley are slim to none at best... Two volleys no doubt, but that's 14 bullets (assuming two levels of triggerhappy) down the gurgler as opposed to just four for my Angel of Marksmanship... Not to mention that the pistol build character doesn't have to worry about juggling 9mm and power cell ammo as the chaingunner will probably have to...

"...it's still pretty hard putting down anything north of Hell Knight"... I'm sorry, what? First of all, I'm pretty sure a Revenant counts as being "north of a Hell Knight", second, in my last AoMarks game (which I won), Barons were going down in 4-5 volleys, Aracnotrons didn't take more than 4 (and my character was firing so fast they were frequently unable to return fire) and, as I said, Revenants were going down in two... I can't really speak for mancubi (since I didn't encounter many) or Viles (since I didn't encounter any, this being a decidedly average HNTR run), but the former didn't seem to take more than 4 volleys (total of eight bullets) either...

Yea, sorry about that, I just think it needed to be said...

[Zi]

For traits to be fun there are 2 things that must happen:
 1 - The traits must give you a noticeable advantage for taking it.
 2 - You must be able to make options. In other words there should be several traits that improve your game-style and you shouldn't be forced to take trait A because it's so much better than all the rest.

I totally agree with this in principle.

(But if Son of a Gun didn't have the damage bonus, pistols would be really hard to play.  And I never get enough mods to make whizkid worthwhile, or a good substitute for son of a bitch)

The thing is, even if you change the traits so that they don't only provide benefits to specific weapons, one thing the current system encourages is to max out the levels of a single trait before moving on to others.  I'd rather have 3 levels of your new Reloader, or 3 Son of a Bitch, or 3 Tough as Nails, over having one level of each.  Because additional levels reinforce and focus the benefit you receive.  Try to be a killing machine.  Or a tank.  Or a sniper.  But trying to be a bit of each doesn't work as well.

One way I thought of dealing with this was to only allow X level traits once the player has reached character level 2 * X (for example), then they would have to mix up the trait order choice, but if implemented into the current game, early game characters would be even more weak and fragile than they are now.  One way around this is to actually strengthen the value of level 1 traits, or you could ease up on the danger level early on.