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[ChaoticJosh]

Now, I'm pretty new around here, and so my opinion of this game isn't as full as most of the vets around here, but even with my inexperience, I have to ask, what's the purpose of all these unlockables?

What I mean is, when you first start the game, all the challenges and the upper tiers of difficulty are locked until the player completes some arbitrary goals beforehand. These goals are both difficult and time consuming and I see no reason this feature in the first place.

Yes, I know these can be construed as rewards for playing the game well, but I'm of the philosophy that games shouldn't limit the player on what type of fun they want to have, that it's the game's job to provide the fun, and nothing else.

Now, I'm not bashing the 'rank' system entirely, I think it's very nice. It gives a little title to the players to make them feel good, and neatly falls into what I'd call a 'bragging rights reward'. It's aesthetic, it doesn't serve a practical purpose, but gives the player a reward for their hard work.

It's just that I don't think a player's rank should prohibit him from playing the game the way he wants to play.

Now, DoomRL is a roguelike, a genre I'm familiar with. Now, I'm of the opinion that a problem that a lot of roguelikes share is accessibility. New people have a hard time picking them up for any number of reasons. If someone that had never played a roguelike before were to download this game, and saw that most of it's challenges and difficulty were locked, and then upon doing more research (assuming he had the patience) to see what it takes to unlock them, and then found that he would have to do any number of difficult and time-consuming things, there is the very real possibility of him being turned off from the game, and just refusing to play it.

I really like DoomRL, and while I'm sure Mr. Kornel put thought into the system he's made, I think it would be for the best if the game gave all it's features to the player on startup, rather than expecting him to work for them.

[MaiZure]

What I mean is, when you first start the game, all the challenges and the upper tiers of difficulty are locked until the player completes some arbitrary goals beforehand. These goals are both difficult and time consuming and I see no reason this feature in the first place.

I wouldn't worry about this much longer - the rank system in the next release has been completely redone and most people will find it less tedious and much more flexible when it comes to unlocking challenge modes

[Vestin]

If someone that had never played a roguelike before were to download this game, and saw that most of it's challenges and difficulty were locked, and then upon doing more research (assuming he had the patience) to see what it takes to unlock them, and then found that he would have to do any number of difficult and time-consuming things, there is the very real possibility of him being turned off from the game, and just refusing to play it.

They all are more difficult than the normal game and almost all of them are simply limiting the player in what he can do. I know that everything might have been available from the start but I highly doubt there would be a lot of people out there who wish to play Angel of Berserk on Nightmare as the first thing in this game ;).

[Rabiat]

In my opinion, skill ranks and unlockables are the greatest thing that ever happened to DoomRL. DoomRL games are both very short and very winnable, compared to traditional roguelikes. Winning a single DoomRL game, even on N!, is a relatively simple challenge compared to ascending in NetHack, for example. So for DoomRL it makes sense to have some challenges of increasing dificulty spanning multiple games.

The downside to rank requirements is that a player might get stuck on a single requirement, while otherwise meeting all requirements to progress, or even skip the next rank. The upside is that the requirements set specific goals, which give players a sense of accomplishment when they're met. Also, watching doomguy get killed isn't as big a deal as the death of your character in ADOM, or Crawl.

I don't think the requirements for unlockables are arbitrary, but I can see your point that gameplay shouldn't be restricted unnecessarily. The only response I can come up with is that it isn't gameplay that's restricted, it's the difficulty of gameplay and the challenge modes. I've yet to see the first DoomRL noob owning the game in UV on their first run. Well, except for Blade, but he's like the Stig of Shotgun.

Personally, I like the inaccessible nature of RLs in general, and I expect them to raise impossible challenges. DoomRL is exceptional in that it draws out the impossible challenge over lots of short games, instead of a really long one.

[ChaoticJosh]

In my opinion, skill ranks and unlockables are the greatest thing that ever happened to DoomRL. DoomRL games are both very short and very winnable, compared to traditional roguelikes. Winning a single DoomRL game, even on N!, is a relatively simple challenge compared to ascending in NetHack, for example. So for DoomRL it makes sense to have some challenges of increasing dificulty spanning multiple games.

The downside to rank requirements is that a player might get stuck on a single requirement, while otherwise meeting all requirements to progress, or even skip the next rank. The upside is that the requirements set specific goals, which give players a sense of accomplishment when they're met. Also, watching doomguy get killed isn't as big a deal as the death of your character in ADOM, or Crawl.

I don't think the requirements for unlockables are arbitrary, but I can see your point that gameplay shouldn't be restricted unnecessarily. The only response I can come up with is that it isn't gameplay that's restricted, it's the difficulty of gameplay and the challenge modes. I've yet to see the first DoomRL noob owning the game in UV on their first run. Well, except for Blade, but he's like the Stig of Shotgun.

Personally, I like the inaccessible nature of RLs in general, and I expect them to raise impossible challenges. DoomRL is exceptional in that it draws out the impossible challenge over lots of short games, instead of a really long one.

I don't mean to be confrontational, but it all seems to me is excuse-making.

Comparing DoomRL to Nethack is a pretty hard sell, you don't have to unlock anything in Nethack, you just start and everything is there. All of the extra difficulty is built in as well, in the form of the conduct system, which tracks how you're purposefully limiting yourself.

You say that newer players wouldn't be interested in the extra-hard challenges, but you're not being very considerate to the player that would like to play on a public computer, has had their data wiped because of computer problems, or if it was accidentally deleted by a meddlesome sibling. An experienced player starting up the program would have to jump through all the hoops just to get at what they want, which I feel is counter-productive in terms of what a game is supposed to be: fun for the player.

Also, there's a difference between something being inaccessible, and something being challenging. Going back to the Nethack analogy, Nethack is challenging because everything is trying to kill you, and simple mistakes can spell doom, however, it's inaccessible because you have to literally learn what each key on the keyboard does, and THEN some extra spelt out commands, which is a daunting task.

It's the difference between making the game challenging, and making playing the game challenging, if that makes sense.

[Passionario]

In 0.9.9, all challenges and difficulty modes are unlocked much earlier than in the current version.

[MaiZure]

In 0.9.9, all challenges and difficulty modes are unlocked much earlier than in the current version.

And even in the public version, an experienced player could unlock all of the challenge modes in less than 5 games...*cough* Dervis *cough* Thomas

[ChaoticJosh]

In 0.9.9, all challenges and difficulty modes are unlocked much earlier than in the current version.

Now, I see that. It's something of a cold comfort though, since it doesn't answer my main question: What is the purpose of having unlockables?

[MaiZure]

Now, I see that. It's something of a cold comfort though, since it doesn't answer my main question: What is the purpose of having unlockables?

To keep completionists coming back over and over and over.....
...and believe it or not, it works!

[Rabiat]

I don't mean to be confrontational, but it all seems to me is excuse-making.

* Rabiat fires.
* You barely avoid the blast.

That's okay. ;)

Comparing DoomRL to Nethack is a pretty hard sell, you don't have to unlock anything in Nethack, you just start and everything is there. All of the extra difficulty is built in as well, in the form of the conduct system, which tracks how you're purposefully limiting yourself.

NetHack is just an example of a traditional RL. I meant to compare DoomRL, which has relatively short games, to traditional RLs, which have much longer games. In traditional RLs, long term goals are provided within a single run. A single DoomRL game is too short for that. So, I think DoomRL does a good job at offering some alternative long term goals, even if it's across games.

Of course, having long term or cross-game goals doesn't necessarily mean having to unlock higher difficulties or challenges. That's where you're right. On the other hand, I can't think of any meaningful long term goals besides unlockable difficulties and challenges. I remember playing DoomRL before it had unlockables, and I always felt games were too short and pointless. The skill rank system remedied that.

You say that newer players wouldn't be interested in the extra-hard challenges,(...)

I'm not saying newer players wouldn't be interested in extra-hard challenges, I'm saying they wouldn't be able to complete them without sufficient practice. But don't get me wrong, I don't think there's anything against unlocking UV or N! right from the start. I just happen to like the fact that they're not.

(...) but you're not being very considerate to the player that would like to play on a public computer, has had their data wiped because of computer problems, or if it was accidentally deleted by a meddlesome sibling. An experienced player starting up the program would have to jump through all the hoops just to get at what they want, which I feel is counter-productive in terms of what a game is supposed to be: fun for the player.

I agree with you in the case of experienced players not being able to use their player.dat file, but that's a logistics problem, not a DoomRL problem. Kornel tries his best to preserve player.dat compatibility between versions, and there's little more he can do. Well, except providing cloud storage for .dat files. ;)

Also, there's a difference between something being inaccessible, and something being challenging. Going back to the Nethack analogy, Nethack is challenging because everything is trying to kill you, and simple mistakes can spell doom, however, it's inaccessible because you have to literally learn what each key on the keyboard does, and THEN some extra spelt out commands, which is a daunting task.

It's the difference between making the game challenging, and making playing the game challenging, if that makes sense.

I didn't mean to compare NetHack and DoomRL gameplay-wise, my point was about duration and how limited duration imposes limitations on complexity and long term goals. When it comes to gameplay, I think NetHack is unnecessarily complex to control, not very much fun to play, thematically crippled, and hideously unbalanced. DoomRL on the contrary was designed with admirable restraint in that regard.

Nevertheless, I agree that it's better to make something impossibly difficult than strictly inaccessible. It's just that there's little room for that in a game as short as DoomRL.

[ChaoticJosh]

I understand we are of differing opinions, and I can see your point of view, but the way I think of it:

The ranking system can be divorced from the unlockable system with little harm to the goals you've mentioned. Aiming for a higher rank will still be a perfectly viable pursuit, but now players wouldn't need to have to play many hours worth of play, or have to struggle in the earlier challenges to unlock the things. They can just go to what they want and participate in the same ranking system in their own way.

This may be harsh of me, but the unlockable system, to me, seems like a way of artificially increasing play time. It's like, instead of giving the player an in-game reason to continue playing, it's providing a metagame reason.

You see, to me, there's no reason why I should have to do all these other things if I want to see all the features of the game. That's all I'm trying to say.

[Jimmy]

Unlocking things and improving one's profile is a huge draw for many people.  It's one of the main reasons kongregate has been successful, compared to other flash gaming sites that don't have challenges or medals.  It's one of the reasons for goldeneye's huge popularity back on the nintendo64.  Going back even further, it's comparable to completing challenges in order to unlock characters in fighting games- in tekken for example, every character has a sub-boss character they must fight before the last boss.  Those subbosses are all unlockable by winning the game with the character that fights them, and then the last boss by winning with all of the subbosses.

The idea, I guess, is that it's that process that is the draw.  This is why some modern games have absurd numbers of unlockables.  Smash brothers brawl is an example of a game that does this well.  There is an insane amount of unlockable content, but there are multiple ways to unlock the most important content, (the extra characters) and much of the content would be meaningless to people that don't care about being a completionist (stickers, medals).

In my case, I haven't played doomrl in a few months now because I've been eagerly anticipating the new release, and don't want to waste my time on my old profile that won't be transferred.  ;) 

[Rabiat]

The ranking system can be divorced from the unlockable system with little harm to the goals you've mentioned. Aiming for a higher rank will still be a perfectly viable pursuit, but now players wouldn't need to have to play many hours worth of play, or have to struggle in the earlier challenges to unlock the things. They can just go to what they want and participate in the same ranking system in their own way.

Kids today. Back in my day, we didn't have challenge modes, we didn't get to unlock crap, we didn't have weapon mods, or even Doom sounds! We set the code page manually, fired up the game from the command line, blasted our way through one godforsaken spider cave after the other, lost every fourth run to a different crash bug, AND WE LIKED IT!

I guess what I'm saying is that challenge modes and ranks were added to DoomRL together. Yes, separating them would make perfect sense. The only reason I'd hate to see that happen is because you're WRONG! because I feel unlocking an actual, playable game mode is a more tangible reward than receiving a disconnected rank in the player stats for its own sake.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Comparing DoomRL to Nethack is a pretty hard sell, you don't have to unlock anything in Nethack, you just start and everything is there.

No it isn't. I played a lot of it, and still didn't manage to "unlock" access to Gehenna. Moreover, it's a stupid kind of access, because I need to do all the needed dungeon level challenges again each time I die or ascend, instead of just hopping into Gehenna game.

You say that newer players wouldn't be interested in the extra-hard challenges, but you're not being very considerate to the player that would like to play on a public computer, has had their data wiped because of computer problems, or if it was accidentally deleted by a meddlesome sibling. An experienced player starting up the program would have to jump through all the hoops just to get at what they want, which I feel is counter-productive in terms of what a game is supposed to be: fun for the player.

In the current beta you can probably unlock every difficulty by completing a well thought out challenge game (planning your playthrough to maximize badge aquisitions).

[Aki]

@Josh: The current Beta has backups of Player.wad's, so there'll be little to no problem with data deletion.

[ChaoticJosh]

Well, it would seem that we have an irreconcilable differences, as it would appear that you're all pretty adamant on the "Unlockables Features as a reward" stance. Let me just say this however:

Unlocking things and improving one's profile is a huge draw for many people.  It's one of the main reasons kongregate has been successful, compared to other flash gaming sites that don't have challenges or medals.  It's one of the reasons for goldeneye's huge popularity back on the nintendo64.  Going back even further, it's comparable to completing challenges in order to unlock characters in fighting games- in tekken for example, every character has a sub-boss character they must fight before the last boss.  Those subbosses are all unlockable by winning the game with the character that fights them, and then the last boss by winning with all of the subbosses.

The idea, I guess, is that it's that process that is the draw.  This is why some modern games have absurd numbers of unlockables.  Smash brothers brawl is an example of a game that does this well.  There is an insane amount of unlockable content, but there are multiple ways to unlock the most important content, (the extra characters) and much of the content would be meaningless to people that don't care about being a completionist (stickers, medals).

In my case, I haven't played doomrl in a few months now because I've been eagerly anticipating the new release, and don't want to waste my time on my old profile that won't be transferred.  ;) 

This may just be me, but I don't think it's acceptable that a game do something just because other games, on different systems, targetted at different audiences, and are different genres altogether did them, and were aggravating even then. I know I would have enjoyed the games you listed much more if there were no unlockables.

Comparing DoomRL to Nethack is a pretty hard sell, you don't have to unlock anything in Nethack, you just start and everything is there.

No it isn't. I played a lot of it, and still didn't manage to "unlock" access to Gehenna. Moreover, it's a stupid kind of access, because I need to do all the needed dungeon level challenges again each time I die or ascend, instead of just hopping into Gehenna game.

I'm glad to hear that you've played Nethack as well. I've beaten it 3 times now, but let's not get sidetracked by superfluous analogies.

I hate to be rude Mr. Kornel, but I must say that that is an absurd assertion. Things which are part of the game, are fair challenges, and are by no means arbitrary don't seem to me to be what I'm talking about. That would be like me saying "How come I have to unlock access to Hell's Armory in DoomRL? Why can't I just start and be in there already? Every time I die, I have to play the game and complete it's challenges to get there!".

I don't wish to argue with you on needless points Mr. Kornel, as it would appear that you want to design your game in your own way. I can respect that, and if you have no intention of listening to me, then just say so and I will be gone.

[Vestin]

This may just be me, but I don't think it's acceptable that a game do something just because other games, on different systems, targetted at different audiences, and are different genres altogether did them, and were aggravating even then. I know I would have enjoyed the games you listed much more if there were no unlockables.

It was not stated as a cause - it was simply an example of how unlockables make games more fun for lots of people.

Things which are part of the game, are fair challenges, and are by no means arbitrary don't seem to me to be what I'm talking about. That would be like me saying "How come I have to unlock access to Hell's Armory in DoomRL? Why can't I just start and be in there already? Every time I die, I have to play the game and complete it's challenges to get there!".

You have to think a little broader than that. Let me spell it out for you: things get more difficult when you are ready to face them.
Prove me wrong. Post a YAVP on hard or something similarly impressing...

I don't wish to argue with you on needless points Mr. Kornel, as it would appear that you want to design your game in your own way.

How audacious of him, isn't it ;) ?

I can respect that, and if you have no intention of listening to me, then just say so and I will be gone.

We are all listening to you, we simply don't think you are right. Show us why it would be better to abandon all unlockability, other than the fact that a single person would be happy.

[Passionario]

Passionario's eyes twinkle with merriment.

So, which one did you get stuck on? Berserk? Impatience? Purity?

[MaiZure]

Passionario's eyes twinkle with merriment.

So, which one did you get stuck on? Berserk? Impatience? Purity?

It's gotta be Pacifism...how ironic!

[Brewtal Legend]

I think it would be cool to make certain special weapons/items only available after a certain rank is unlocked. Or even a new level after the regular final level. That might add extra incentive to unlock everything. I still like gaining ranks and such though. It adds a sense of accomplishment, even though I hardly have the time needed to gain higher ranks most the time.

[UnderAPaleGreySky]

I think it would be cool to make certain special weapons/items only available after a certain rank is unlocked. Or even a new level after the regular final level.

Are you referring to the Cyberdemon level or the JC level? 'Cos I don't count surviving a nuke to get to a level as being "regular".

[Aki]

I disagree. I don't want to have to have a Diamond badge before I can see a Jackhammer O_o

[Madtrixr]

I disagree. I don't want to have to have a Diamond badge before I can see a Jackhammer O_o

Agreed. I want to get a weapon when I find it. I want to be able to find the Railgun, not earn 3 Plats for it.

[UnderAPaleGreySky]

I found the Railgun once. Mad fun.

[Madtrixr]

Yeah, see? Railgun=Fun

[Vestin]

Yeah, see? Railgun=Fun

To be honest: Fun(Railgun).
They are not the same thing, you know.

[Jimmy]

chaoticjosh- the fact that the games I mentioned are of some very different genres shows how deriving enjoyment from unlockables is not something bound to any single genre of games.  I can't think of a single genre that doesn't have examples of games with unlockable content, actually, from sports games to rpgs to sound novels.  It looks like you simply don't personally like unlockables, but it can't be contested that they are very popular.  Ultimately it's just kornel's choice, but I daresay that he would likely upset many more people than he would please if he eliminated unlockables.  It would be different perhaps if he had never decided to include them in the first place, but at this point, they're one of the features that make DoomRL stand out compared to other computer roguelikes.  (unlockables aren't unknown in roguelikes incidentally- I know that at least the chocobo's dungeon and fuurai no shiren series have them on consoles)

[Madtrixr]

To be honest: Fun(Railgun).
They are not the same thing, you know.

Ah, of course. Thank you for correcting me. :D

[Aki]

Railgun is only fun if they line up in a nice little row for you.

I didn't read Jimmy's post. Could someone put it in English for me?

[UnderAPaleGreySky]

Railgun is only fun if they line up in a nice little row for you.

Which is why we are eternally grateful for corridors.

I didn't read Jimmy's post. Could someone put it in English for me?

I'm not gonna try...

[Aki]

And not for Rev's.

[Jimmy]

What are you talking about?  The spacing? 

The post wasn't a reply to you in any case, but I assure you it was in English.

[Aki]

I'm talking about the fact that there seems to be no linebreaks and no capitals.

Makes for one messy tl;dr.

[UnderAPaleGreySky]

Yep.

[Madtrixr]

Seconded.

[Aki]

Unless you're linking to Youtube, try not to one-word post, guys D:

[Madtrixr]

Sorry.











Yes, I remembered. Don't worry. Seriously though, I'll remember that.

[Aki]

That little bar under your Avatar only deserves to go up if you post meaningful stuff.


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