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Author Topic: Master Traits and the possible defense/weapon combos  (Read 3924 times)

Thomas

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Master Traits and the possible defense/weapon combos
« on: October 17, 2009, 05:25 »

Somebody said that while Master Traits was a good idea, it kind of shoehorns people in to one of 7 builds. I'll admit, I can't remember that last time I did a run without getting a master trait.

So I was thinking, and I figured that master traits in itself was not the problem, the problem was that there were only master traits for 1-2 builds per weapon. For example, if you want to play Shotgun Active, you're in a spot of bother because Shotgun Passive has a master trait that blows DM SM out of the water.

For those not in the know, Active is "Dodge a lot", Passive is "Have lots of armour/HP" and Tactical is "Don't let enemies see you"

So one solution is to make master traits more general and apply to numerous builds at once but I'm not sure that this is possible. A solution I perfer would be to make more master traits, until every build is possible from Rapidfire Active to Shotgun Tactical.

For example:
Run 'n' gun: DM TH, allows movement during chain-firing, but the game will only fire at your last target or a random one if you have no last target. (Turns off TaN)
Anticipation: DM SM, enemy accuracy always behaves as though you're at max range.
Hard as a Rock: TaN 3 Wiz, gives 1 extra armour if you spend the last move firing a weapon, 2 while chainfiring. (Turns off SoB)
Fireangel: Change it to something more accessable, like HR 2 Fin 2 Iro 2.

What they block off isn't really important unless I've put it in brackets.

This covers pretty much every possible shotgun/rapidfire build, and puts us at a nice even 10 master traits.
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Dervis

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Re: Master Traits and the possible defense/weapon combos
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2009, 06:28 »

How I see the problem.

Defenses:
- Active (Unreliable, it's an all or nothing type of defense most of the time, emphasis on the nothing)
- Passive (You'll always take some hits with this defense, they just won't hurt you much, reliable, mows down on your medkits/armors a bit compared to tactical)
- Tactical (If you're in control, you'll prevent most attacks, If you get surrounded/surprised you're in trouble)

Balance wise, Tactical and Passive are ok, while Active defense is clearly the underdog. I would improve dodging a bit:

Dodging works like this (as i see it/made-up numbers):

Whenever a ranged attack is used, the game checks for dodging (let's say it rolls 1d100 against the dodge chance)
(let's say dodge chance = 40%)
IF 1d100>40 then the shot isn't dodged and hits the marine normally.
IF 1d100<40 then the shot is dodged and heads to the position the target was on the previous turn.
If you're moving sideways to the trajectory, you're ok... If you moved parallel to the shot, you get hit. If you fired/reloaded/etc., you get hit.

What I would propose would be:
(let's say dodge chance = 40%)
IF 1d100+40<100 No dodge
IF 100<1d100+40<130 Dodge1 -> shot moves to target's previous position
IF 130<1d100+40>160 Dodge2 -> shot moves to target's position from 2 turns ago
IF 160<1d100+40 Dodge3 -> shot moves to target's position from 3 turns ago

At high dodge chances this would enable you to get things done between shots and even dodge BoH Splash damage, Rev/Vile attacks at times.

Regarding Master traits:
- MAD is very good compared to DM mainly because the Double Shotgun can't dish out enough pain at close range. If it could MAD wouldn't be such a no-brainer.
- MAc, great for people who don't want ammo concerns. IF not for the 2 guaranteed Agiltiy mods on the Chained Courts this wouldn't be so dominant.
- FireAngel, funny how the mother of all Active defenses blocks Hellrunner.
- Blademaster and Vampyre even themselves out, although Blademaster has some advantage.
- GunKata is somewhat fun, although you might miss some firepower on higher difficulties.
- CatEye is a well-known trait but i think the requirements/blocks are wrong. Could be made more versatile.

I like your Run n' Gun :>. The others not really.
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Gargulec

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Re: Master Traits and the possible defense/weapon combos
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2009, 08:02 »

By all the stars that ever shone
By all the gods, known and unknown
If Fireangel will have reqs like DM+Fin2+Iro1, I swear I'll donate.
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Aki

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Re: Master Traits and the possible defense/weapon combos
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2009, 08:04 »

Watch as it now blocks Reloader.

:D
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Journey

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Re: Master Traits and the possible defense/weapon combos
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2009, 22:17 »

I do think the current Master Trait restrictions are far too strict, and a lot require traits that aren't necessarily useful.  I'll never take Gun Kata, for example - as I don't find a use for hellrunner with pistols.  On the other hand, if you use shotguns without Army of the Dead, you're at a huge disadvantage, thanks to double armor effectiveness against shotguns.  To ensure that your shotguns are effective against later enemies, you have to follow the build for that master trait.

Dervis's dodge idea has a tremendous amount of potential.  The problem with dodging now is that most of the time you don't get a chance to act offensively despite dodging.  Suppose you're facing a few ordinary enemies and if you fire, you probably can't finish them all and will take a hit from their retaliatory fire - so you sidestep instead.  Perhaps the RNG goes your way, and you dodge their shots.  But once again you're facing the same enemies, who will get another chance to fire at you.  The only way dodging lets the player gain some advantage is if you're trying to close the distance to attack in melee, or perhaps a bit closer with your shotgun (still a big risk!), or if the enemy, most likely alone, needs to reload.

Dervis's proposed idea could lead to a sidestep's effect lasting 1+ turns beyond the turn used to sidestep, so after a sidestep you're not necessarily in a similar situation as before.  After a 'good' dodge, the player gains a turn where enemies will likely still miss him, but he actually gets a chance to take an offensive action before needing to dodge again.  Depending on how the numbers are designed, it could lead to a new way of playing - sidestep, shoot (or reload), sidestep, shoot, etc.
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Brothers.Imp

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Re: Master Traits and the possible defense/weapon combos
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2009, 11:35 »

I think Fireangel sounds too much like "Angel of..", maybe "Fireproof" or something.  ("You no longer fear the heat of all hells combined.") Perhaps it could reduce lava damage and arch-vile flames too? Might make it a little more tempting.
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