DRL > Requests For Features

Engineer/Scavenger/Junkman trait

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raekuul:

--- Quote from: X-Heiko on November 11, 2009, 14:38 ---Secondly, the thought of making this a master trait has also crossed my mind, but somehow I like the idea of simple engineering skills available early on.
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I believe we already have this as Whizkid... maybe expand Whizkid to include Dismantling things? You'd be getting Whizkid 1 around the same time it would be useful to make ammo from junk.
--- Quote ---And finally, the uniques... Of course, such weapons would require a master trait.
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Again, we get Crafting as Master Trait Craftsman.
--- Quote ---Oh yes, I forgot: You have to feel relatively safe to craft or repair. As far as I know, all time spans in the game represent time spans that are only a few seconds long.
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How about blocking Crafting unless you feel relatively safe? That way it won't matter how long it takes... As for dismantling?

17 seconds is long enough to get killed by a former human punching you. That was on the other side of the room.

Tavana:
My personal thoughts on the matter: Since this is going to go into DoomRL 2 if it happens (the trait that is, not DoomRL 2), I'm sure that other traits may be expanded and made more awesome/changed completely. I recommend that Whizkid and this trait style be merged. Whizkid 1 allows +1 mod slot on weapon, and dismantling. Whizkid 2 allows (total) +2 mod slots on weapon, +1 mod slot on armour, larger stacking of leftover junk. This unlocks a NEW trait (Engineer works for me), allowing crafting of items, and perhaps sensing of items on the level.

I agree totally with the unlocking the ability to craft items by dismantling items previously a set number of times. I suggest also that perhaps certain styles of gameplay will generate less junk (Ao100 for example) and that higher difficulty will effect how much junk is created, to balance the greater number of weapons/ammo being left behind.

Another variation of the "unlock the ability to craft" idea, is that you're able to attempt crafting various "low level" (but still useful) items regardless of how many you've dismantled, but there is a chance that you'll fail the check, and lose a number of your junk parts. Both these ideas could be merged, as well.

I was thinking that perhaps this new trait could have a second level, allowing the crafting of various packs in your inventory. Or this idea and the one above could go together.

Another other input?

Jarkko:
In a game with futuristich tech, weapons, ammo and armour like DOOM, I think tinkering with gadgets fits. In DOOM, not so much. Maybe it's something for mods.

This would be very hard to balance and not worth the trouble IMO. There's this inventory management thing supposed to be going on in DoomRL and if you can use everything you find it kind of defeats the purpose. For example armour. If armour degredation is balanced so that you can get by without this trait, then if you choose to take it you'll end up walking around with buffed-with-self-made-mods armour at 200% all the time, as you'll be vacuum cleaning all levels breaking down all the items for scrap metal after you've killed the monsters and that one superarmour you've made never gets destroyed. If this kind of self-repair is taken into consideration when balancing the armour then the trait becomes a necessity as without it you won't have any.

As for "breaking an item down x times in previous games": this is horrible. Your 100th AoB game goes better than the first because you learn to play better, not because you get bonus melee damage for playing so much. So far DoomRL has had quite a limited amount of grinding and leveling up, ranks and badges and stuff don't effect the gameplay and that's a good thing.

"A-ha! I've found my 5000th advanced plasma rifle! Every game I play after this one I will have an advanced plasma rifle 100% guaranteed! At least until 0.9.10." I don't see the fun in this.

Such a counter might work if it's only for a single game. Break down the first five Pancor Jackhammers you find in that game and you can add a power mod to the sixth one you find.

ZZ:

--- Quote from: Jarkko on November 12, 2009, 17:04 ---In a game with futuristich tech, weapons, ammo and armour like DOOM, I think tinkering with gadgets fits. In DOOM, not so much. Maybe it's something for mods.

This would be very hard to balance and not worth the trouble IMO. There's this inventory management thing supposed to be going on in DoomRL and if you can use everything you find it kind of defeats the purpose. For example armour. If armour degredation is balanced so that you can get by without this trait, then if you choose to take it you'll end up walking around with buffed-with-self-made-mods armour at 200% all the time, as you'll be vacuum cleaning all levels breaking down all the items for scrap metal after you've killed the monsters and that one superarmour you've made never gets destroyed. If this kind of self-repair is taken into consideration when balancing the armour then the trait becomes a necessity as without it you won't have any.

As for "breaking an item down x times in previous games": this is horrible. Your 100th AoB game goes better than the first because you learn to play better, not because you get bonus melee damage for playing so much. So far DoomRL has had quite a limited amount of grinding and leveling up, ranks and badges and stuff don't effect the gameplay and that's a good thing.

"A-ha! I've found my 5000th advanced plasma rifle! Every game I play after this one I will have an advanced plasma rifle 100% guaranteed! At least until 0.9.10." I don't see the fun in this.

Such a counter might work if it's only for a single game. Break down the first five Pancor Jackhammers you find in that game and you can add a power mod to the sixth one you find.

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So if you don't know what you've done, thats quite balanced. While you're going around a level and looting  the items, you can't update your equpment, you just have a chance to update it. It's appr. equal to chance of getting unique. In most cases you would just have an ordinary weapon or an advanced pistol when you craft items from junk.

Another idea is to select how much junk would you spend. IF you spend LOTS of junk(and if you have place for it), you're almost guaranted to have unique. And whenn you just spend 1 pile of junk, th? chance of getting unique is abnormaly small.

X-Heiko:

--- Quote from: Jarkko on November 12, 2009, 17:04 ---In a game with futuristich tech, weapons, ammo and armour like DOOM, I think tinkering with gadgets fits. In DOOM, not so much. Maybe it's something for mods.

--- End quote ---

Yeah, I basically wanted to make it a mod but that seems impossible for me to do atm.^^


--- Quote ---This would be very hard to balance and not worth the trouble IMO.

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Yup, definitely it would be a lot of work. I'd agree to help on junk cost tables etc., how much trouble is worth what is still mainly Kornel's thing, nay?


--- Quote ---There's this inventory management thing supposed to be going on in DoomRL and if you can use everything you find it kind of defeats the purpose.

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That's not what I suggested. I suggested weapons, armor and mods to be craftable, armor to be repairable. You'd still need to manage ammo, medpacks, alternative weapons, envirosuit packs, thermonuclear bombs if any, phasing devices... You'd even have an extra inv management component because you need to carry your junk around. I'd agree with you especially if medpacks and ammo were part of the plan.


--- Quote ---For example armour. If armour degredation is balanced so that you can get by without this trait, then if you choose to take it you'll end up walking around with buffed-with-self-made-mods armour at 200% all the time, as you'll be vacuum cleaning all levels breaking down all the items for scrap metal after you've killed the monsters and that one superarmour you've made never gets destroyed.

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Okay, if you let me get more detailed about what I thought here. These are example numbers, just so you get my point:

-You find about (Number of Level)*5 junk per level.
-You can carry 20 junk in one inventory slot.
-Reparing armor costs N junk per percentile to be repaired, N is max protection. Mods don't count.
-> If your [8,8]200% red armor should actually survive the tough battle with, say 2% left (equals 1% for the calculation), you'd have to pay 4*99 junk, which is 396 junk, for which you'd need 20 inventory spaces. Even with a backpack, you'd need so much junk that you could almost only repair as much junk as you find lying around. At about level 20 such scenarios could happen (a lot of barons punishing your armor), so the 100 junk you'd find lying around wouldn't remotely suffice to fully repair your armor. If you choose to have super armor, you'll be scraping off every piece of junk you find into that thing - no junk for weapons left.

Another idea: Make mods count? So an [8,8,]200% armor would have N=8 and up to 199% to repair, 8*199 junk = 1592 junk. 1755 is all the junk you find in a 25-level-game. Does not pay off I'd say.

If this kind of self-repair is taken into consideration when balancing the armour then the trait becomes a necessity as without it you won't have any.


--- Quote ---As for "breaking an item down x times in previous games": this is horrible. Your 100th AoB game goes better than the first because you learn to play better, not because you get bonus melee damage for playing so much.

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But you have to admit there's some luck in there, nay? I personally prefer the idea of achievements that do something over medals that earn you ranks that just unlock stuff (which is cool, though).


--- Quote ---So far DoomRL has had quite a limited amount of grinding and leveling up, ranks and badges and stuff don't effect the gameplay and that's a good thing.

--- End quote ---

In yoour opinion! XD
Okay, sorry. That was low. I apologize. I have nothing to say against that, you're right.


--- Quote ---"A-ha! I've found my 5000th advanced plasma rifle! Every game I play after this one I will have an advanced plasma rifle 100% guaranteed! At least until 0.9.10." I don't see the fun in this.

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Talking about the scales from above, an advanced plasma rifle should cost at least 200 junk, which wouldn't be available until level 9, given you spend 10 inventory places alone for your favourite gun. Is it really that imbalanced?

You said it yourself, it's quite some balancing work. But it could fix most of your issues. Else, just go play "Angel of no Crafting" x'D

Okay, that was another stupid joke. You have to excuse me.


--- Quote ---Such a counter might work if it's only for a single game. Break down the first five Pancor Jackhammers you find in that game and you can add a power mod to the sixth one you find.

--- End quote ---

Do you find 6 of the same uniques in one game? Wow, I guess I have to learn how to "play better"... Or are you talking Ao100?

All in one, I think what crystalizes out of this idea is: make a basic engineer trait that is barely enough to keep your armor up, make a master engineer trait that lets you carry a motherload of junk and build useful stuff?

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