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[X-Heiko]

Name, quote and description are not that important, so let me cut to the beef of this horribly undoomish but maybe fun idea:

This trait enables three new commands for you to use. Dismantle, Repair, Craft. What buttons they use or how they are explicitly called is not that important, so blah.

Dismantle takes weapons(common, advanced,unique),armor(common,unique) or mods(common, unique) on the ground or inventory and turns them into junk/scrap/material - whatever you call it, I'll use "junk" for now. Junk is a kind of ammo if you will. Each item has a number of junk units it produces. The more valuable an item is, the more junk you can salvage from it. That way you have a use for all these uninteresting weapons people shamelessly leave lying around.^__^

Repair uses junk to replenish armor durability. Junk costs are dependant on how many percentiles shall be repaired and how much max protection the armor has, so that repairing green armor is easy while repairing red armor takes a ton of junk. Repair is not to be affected by power or bulk mods (repairs double the durability then) That way armor decay is quite okay (no rhyme intended).

Craft is where the trait idea starts to get interesting. It adds up to the spice of collecting items and creating a flow in playing the game over and over again. You can craft items for junk, it should probably cost more than what you get when you dismantle items. You can only craft weapons(common, advanced, unique), armor(common, unique) or mods(common, unique). Sounds like a great way to Dragonslayer-Jackhammerize the shit out of your BFG10k with your railgun, but here's the catch: You don't know jack about crafting stuff unless you ,in your player statistics, have dismantled LOADS of the same items. For example: Creating a pistol requires you to have dismantles 50 pistols in all games so far. Better items require even more of those. The exception would be uniques, I don't know, but I think 10 railguns is enough, given a VERY high junk cost, which all uniques should have. Suggesting specific values is not appropriate at the moment, as I expect only little to no interest in my idea XD

In my original idea, "advanced weapon" would be an additional entry, such as in "You have to have dismantled 200 advanced weapons to craft advanced weapons" instead of "You have to have dismantled 25 advanced pistols to craft advanced pistols".

I originally thought of this trait as a one-level-trait. Ideas for a multilevel trait would be: higher junk gains, lower junk costs, more junk per item slot, the ability to craft adv. weapons, the ability to craft unique weapons, but I don't think that would be necessary.

A link to whizkid, finesse or similar might be good for the balancing, but I thought of this trait to be available early on.

Oh yeah. If you have Vampyre, maybe an option to "get" corpses for a few extra health points under 100%?

[raekuul]

Make it a master trait, disallow crafting of uniques altogether.

Otherwise, I can see this going places.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Actually I really like this idea, although it's main target would probably be DoomRL 2.

[ZZ]

I too join the idea of Engineer master trait(WK2 + Iro2 I suppose(count from another master traits)) but you can create an random item (even another pile of junk). If it won't be a master trait it will add serious disbalance into game.

It's main target would probably be  DoomRL 2.

The DoomRL 2 would be an awesome product, far beyond original Doom 2.

[X-Heiko]

If I may add on a few thoughts here:

Firstly, thanks for appreciating my idea that much! I really didn't expect even Kornel to like it.^^

Secondly, the thought of making this a master trait has also crossed my mind, but somehow I like the idea of simple engineering skills available early on. In the first levels, you have a lot of junk lying around (who needs 2 shotguns?), while in hell you encounter more monsters who don't even carry weapons. What about an early trait that allows dismantling and crafting of basic items (whatever that would exactly mean) and a master trait that allows advanced items and maybe a few craftable-only items? You could also have piss poor junk efficiency without the corresponding master trait. That way, you wouldn't have to block your beloved gameplay method with a master trait while still being able to repair your armor if you have a whole load of stuff lying around from the battle.

And finally, the uniques. I have noticed there are two kinds of uniques. There are unique uniques and technically unique items. For example, the Dragonslayer is a unique unique, but the Blaster is actually a type of weapon that's just really rare and not counted as a unique. Of course there's something wrong in the doom marine smithing a legendary blade out of the remains of a double shotgun, but making a nuclear plasma rifle out of a few normal BFG's? Of course, such weapons would require a master trait.

Oh yes, I forgot: You have to feel relatively safe to craft or repair. As far as I know, all time spans in the game represent time spans that are only a few seconds long. Not that I wouldn't trust the doomguy to disassemble his rifle in 17 seconds, but building a high-tech weapon from a few pieces of junk surely requires a lot of time. Repairing armor in battle would unbalance everything.

Also... that's probably too complicated, but maybe make partially mechanical enemies drop junk? Arachnotrons, Revenants, Mancubi etc.

[raekuul]

Secondly, the thought of making this a master trait has also crossed my mind, but somehow I like the idea of simple engineering skills available early on.

I believe we already have this as Whizkid... maybe expand Whizkid to include Dismantling things? You'd be getting Whizkid 1 around the same time it would be useful to make ammo from junk.

And finally, the uniques... Of course, such weapons would require a master trait.

Again, we get Crafting as Master Trait Craftsman.

Oh yes, I forgot: You have to feel relatively safe to craft or repair. As far as I know, all time spans in the game represent time spans that are only a few seconds long.

How about blocking Crafting unless you feel relatively safe? That way it won't matter how long it takes... As for dismantling?

17 seconds is long enough to get killed by a former human punching you. That was on the other side of the room.

[Tavana]

My personal thoughts on the matter: Since this is going to go into DoomRL 2 if it happens (the trait that is, not DoomRL 2), I'm sure that other traits may be expanded and made more awesome/changed completely. I recommend that Whizkid and this trait style be merged. Whizkid 1 allows +1 mod slot on weapon, and dismantling. Whizkid 2 allows (total) +2 mod slots on weapon, +1 mod slot on armour, larger stacking of leftover junk. This unlocks a NEW trait (Engineer works for me), allowing crafting of items, and perhaps sensing of items on the level.

I agree totally with the unlocking the ability to craft items by dismantling items previously a set number of times. I suggest also that perhaps certain styles of gameplay will generate less junk (Ao100 for example) and that higher difficulty will effect how much junk is created, to balance the greater number of weapons/ammo being left behind.

Another variation of the "unlock the ability to craft" idea, is that you're able to attempt crafting various "low level" (but still useful) items regardless of how many you've dismantled, but there is a chance that you'll fail the check, and lose a number of your junk parts. Both these ideas could be merged, as well.

I was thinking that perhaps this new trait could have a second level, allowing the crafting of various packs in your inventory. Or this idea and the one above could go together.

Another other input?

[Jarkko]

In a game with futuristich tech, weapons, ammo and armour like DOOM, I think tinkering with gadgets fits. In DOOM, not so much. Maybe it's something for mods.

This would be very hard to balance and not worth the trouble IMO. There's this inventory management thing supposed to be going on in DoomRL and if you can use everything you find it kind of defeats the purpose. For example armour. If armour degredation is balanced so that you can get by without this trait, then if you choose to take it you'll end up walking around with buffed-with-self-made-mods armour at 200% all the time, as you'll be vacuum cleaning all levels breaking down all the items for scrap metal after you've killed the monsters and that one superarmour you've made never gets destroyed. If this kind of self-repair is taken into consideration when balancing the armour then the trait becomes a necessity as without it you won't have any.

As for "breaking an item down x times in previous games": this is horrible. Your 100th AoB game goes better than the first because you learn to play better, not because you get bonus melee damage for playing so much. So far DoomRL has had quite a limited amount of grinding and leveling up, ranks and badges and stuff don't effect the gameplay and that's a good thing.

"A-ha! I've found my 5000th advanced plasma rifle! Every game I play after this one I will have an advanced plasma rifle 100% guaranteed! At least until 0.9.10." I don't see the fun in this.

Such a counter might work if it's only for a single game. Break down the first five Pancor Jackhammers you find in that game and you can add a power mod to the sixth one you find.

[ZZ]

In a game with futuristich tech, weapons, ammo and armour like DOOM, I think tinkering with gadgets fits. In DOOM, not so much. Maybe it's something for mods.

This would be very hard to balance and not worth the trouble IMO. There's this inventory management thing supposed to be going on in DoomRL and if you can use everything you find it kind of defeats the purpose. For example armour. If armour degredation is balanced so that you can get by without this trait, then if you choose to take it you'll end up walking around with buffed-with-self-made-mods armour at 200% all the time, as you'll be vacuum cleaning all levels breaking down all the items for scrap metal after you've killed the monsters and that one superarmour you've made never gets destroyed. If this kind of self-repair is taken into consideration when balancing the armour then the trait becomes a necessity as without it you won't have any.

As for "breaking an item down x times in previous games": this is horrible. Your 100th AoB game goes better than the first because you learn to play better, not because you get bonus melee damage for playing so much. So far DoomRL has had quite a limited amount of grinding and leveling up, ranks and badges and stuff don't effect the gameplay and that's a good thing.

"A-ha! I've found my 5000th advanced plasma rifle! Every game I play after this one I will have an advanced plasma rifle 100% guaranteed! At least until 0.9.10." I don't see the fun in this.

Such a counter might work if it's only for a single game. Break down the first five Pancor Jackhammers you find in that game and you can add a power mod to the sixth one you find.

So if you don't know what you've done, thats quite balanced. While you're going around a level and looting  the items, you can't update your equpment, you just have a chance to update it. It's appr. equal to chance of getting unique. In most cases you would just have an ordinary weapon or an advanced pistol when you craft items from junk.

Another idea is to select how much junk would you spend. IF you spend LOTS of junk(and if you have place for it), you're almost guaranted to have unique. And whenn you just spend 1 pile of junk, th? chance of getting unique is abnormaly small.

[X-Heiko]

In a game with futuristich tech, weapons, ammo and armour like DOOM, I think tinkering with gadgets fits. In DOOM, not so much. Maybe it's something for mods.

Yeah, I basically wanted to make it a mod but that seems impossible for me to do atm.^^

This would be very hard to balance and not worth the trouble IMO.

Yup, definitely it would be a lot of work. I'd agree to help on junk cost tables etc., how much trouble is worth what is still mainly Kornel's thing, nay?

There's this inventory management thing supposed to be going on in DoomRL and if you can use everything you find it kind of defeats the purpose.

That's not what I suggested. I suggested weapons, armor and mods to be craftable, armor to be repairable. You'd still need to manage ammo, medpacks, alternative weapons, envirosuit packs, thermonuclear bombs if any, phasing devices... You'd even have an extra inv management component because you need to carry your junk around. I'd agree with you especially if medpacks and ammo were part of the plan.

For example armour. If armour degredation is balanced so that you can get by without this trait, then if you choose to take it you'll end up walking around with buffed-with-self-made-mods armour at 200% all the time, as you'll be vacuum cleaning all levels breaking down all the items for scrap metal after you've killed the monsters and that one superarmour you've made never gets destroyed.

Okay, if you let me get more detailed about what I thought here. These are example numbers, just so you get my point:

-You find about (Number of Level)*5 junk per level.
-You can carry 20 junk in one inventory slot.
-Reparing armor costs N junk per percentile to be repaired, N is max protection. Mods don't count.
-> If your [8,8]200% red armor should actually survive the tough battle with, say 2% left (equals 1% for the calculation), you'd have to pay 4*99 junk, which is 396 junk, for which you'd need 20 inventory spaces. Even with a backpack, you'd need so much junk that you could almost only repair as much junk as you find lying around. At about level 20 such scenarios could happen (a lot of barons punishing your armor), so the 100 junk you'd find lying around wouldn't remotely suffice to fully repair your armor. If you choose to have super armor, you'll be scraping off every piece of junk you find into that thing - no junk for weapons left.

Another idea: Make mods count? So an [8,8,]200% armor would have N=8 and up to 199% to repair, 8*199 junk = 1592 junk. 1755 is all the junk you find in a 25-level-game. Does not pay off I'd say.

If this kind of self-repair is taken into consideration when balancing the armour then the trait becomes a necessity as without it you won't have any.

As for "breaking an item down x times in previous games": this is horrible. Your 100th AoB game goes better than the first because you learn to play better, not because you get bonus melee damage for playing so much.

But you have to admit there's some luck in there, nay? I personally prefer the idea of achievements that do something over medals that earn you ranks that just unlock stuff (which is cool, though).

So far DoomRL has had quite a limited amount of grinding and leveling up, ranks and badges and stuff don't effect the gameplay and that's a good thing.

In yoour opinion! XD
Okay, sorry. That was low. I apologize. I have nothing to say against that, you're right.

"A-ha! I've found my 5000th advanced plasma rifle! Every game I play after this one I will have an advanced plasma rifle 100% guaranteed! At least until 0.9.10." I don't see the fun in this.

Talking about the scales from above, an advanced plasma rifle should cost at least 200 junk, which wouldn't be available until level 9, given you spend 10 inventory places alone for your favourite gun. Is it really that imbalanced?

You said it yourself, it's quite some balancing work. But it could fix most of your issues. Else, just go play "Angel of no Crafting" x'D

Okay, that was another stupid joke. You have to excuse me.

Such a counter might work if it's only for a single game. Break down the first five Pancor Jackhammers you find in that game and you can add a power mod to the sixth one you find.

Do you find 6 of the same uniques in one game? Wow, I guess I have to learn how to "play better"... Or are you talking Ao100?

All in one, I think what crystalizes out of this idea is: make a basic engineer trait that is barely enough to keep your armor up, make a master engineer trait that lets you carry a motherload of junk and build useful stuff?

[Madtrixr]

For DoomRL 2, this is a good idea. Not so much for DoomRL 1.

[Jarkko]

*lots of stuff*

Thanks for replying in a friendly tone. I do tend to post provocatively and use tons of hyperbole to get some discussion going and I'm glad you didn't start flaming despite me shooting down your ideas pretty hard.

From what I can tell playing this game on and off for a couple of years and reading the forums a bit, the DoomRL "vision" doesn't include lots of grinding elements or unlockable achievements affecting gameplay. Also I don't know about the math about repairing armour and all, I was just thinking that if you can break down items for junk you'd end up leaving very little stuff behind. You seem to have thought of this somewhat and I agree it might be very possible to make it work. Personally I'd just prefer the effort Kornel puts in the game be used for something else. If and when you get this type of  mod out I'll be the first to play it though.

Also I'd like some more grindy elements in Crawl to make my chars stronger, that game is too hard for me.

[Madtrixr]

The way armor is now(and won't be at 0.9.9.1 hopefully), being able to break down armors that have 0 protection and use them to agument other armors would have been great.

[ZZ]

Remembers me of FallOut 3(In 1&2 no) the repair function. There was 1 skill which let you to make 1 more repaired thing from 2 less. It is an post-atomic world, so it's hard there to find non-broken armor. This will hardly fit in DoomRL, but maybe you can create for instance 75% blue armor from 2*45% blue armor. Or maybe 1 blue from 4 green 100% both.

[X-Heiko]

Thanks for replying in a friendly tone. I do tend to post provocatively and use tons of hyperbole to get some discussion going and I'm glad you didn't start flaming despite me shooting down your ideas pretty hard.

From what I can tell playing this game on and off for a couple of years and reading the forums a bit, the DoomRL "vision" doesn't include lots of grinding elements or unlockable achievements affecting gameplay. Also I don't know about the math about repairing armour and all, I was just thinking that if you can break down items for junk you'd end up leaving very little stuff behind. You seem to have thought of this somewhat and I agree it might be very possible to make it work. Personally I'd just prefer the effort Kornel puts in the game be used for something else. If and when you get this type of  mod out I'll be the first to play it though.

Also I'd like some more grindy elements in Crawl to make my chars stronger, that game is too hard for me.

Hey, it's not like I never experienced people feeling provoked by me because I chose the wrong words. Whether that idea is good or not, I think we both trust in Kornel to, if he was to implement it, he would implement it in a fun, not imbalanced way. I'm not trying to influence anyone - on the contrary. I think games are meant to be fun, and if my idea would cause most people to lose fun, I would even oppose my own idea. If 100 ideas are stated and one is accepted, the game has improved, yet 99 ideas had to be rejected. If no bad ideas had been risked to be stated, there would have been no progress. I've had my share of internet flaming already, so I am very glad to see that we both are not interested in quarrelling over small things! ^__^

As for the original concept of DoomRL I totally agree with you. As I stated already, I actually expected this idea to be rejected instantly because of this fact. There's also always the "noob's ideas to make the game easier" factor. I mean, I have to admit that I am by no means a doomRL expert. I'm still looking for some kind of improvement on my tactics, yet I don't really find a better idea than "try not to fight against too many monsters at once" and "if it's blue, and it's an h, then shoot it asap".