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[Karry]

Soo...which of them you find most useful ?
I say that only GunKata is a viable choice, especially since we've been robbed of advanced pistol in AoM, the rest of them are rather iffy.

Ammochain is basically an invitation to suicide.

Army of the Dead...well, the most important thing with shotguns is to close quickly and shoot fast, and you trade that for a few extra points of damage ? Considering that shotguns damage REALLY dissipate with range - thats not a smart thing to do, Revenants will rape you hard if you make this choice.

Vampire doesnt really hurt all that much, but its not of any real use either, especially since you are required to get Badass for it. It gives you 5% a kill, if i'm not mistaken, which is negligeable.

Fireangel - why would you even want that ?

Cateye is very level dependent, soo...

Blademaster is the only one i havent tried yet, but cant imagine it being all that great, how often do you get surrounded anyway ?

[ZZ]

Okay:
Ammochain: with it's requirements and without the trait you'll blow up any enemy pn sight with chainfire, but sooner or later(rather sooner) you'll run out of bullets. So this trait is VERY usefull if you know how to use it.

Cateye:also with requirements is rather usefull. You're lurking on the level, knowing that if you see enemy, he doesn't see you. And you can blow him up before he knows what have hit him.
Army of the Dead:designed for double shotgun rather, where armor is a HUGE problem. There even if close up into close quaters, 6 times armor is applied( if I'm correct).

Vampyre:Gives 3 HP which is 6% without Iro, 5% with Iro1, 4,3% with Iro2 and 3,75% with Iro3. It just gives a little boost to HP, useful for crowds.And it's some kind reference to my idea.

Blademaster:Junk without dodgemaster, with it lets you destroy enemy group without letting them hit you.(Junk with Butcher's Cleaver);

Fireangel:My favourite master trait, lets you blow up every enemy with your RL in melee, fly away with Rocket Jump, blow up barrels just like mines, dodge missles of any enemy without thinking of walls, and if that wasn't enough, you're walking with 120 HP( if you're good player).

There isn't the best, it just depends of your play style.

[Midnight]

Army of Dead: a must have for a shotgun run, really. You need to shoot hell knights about three times with a double shotgun from minimal distance to put them down, and about five or six times for barons without this trait. And God help you if they are wearing armor. This trait, however, cuts down the number of required shots significantly.

Gun Kata: kind of OK, I guess. Gives you an edge over a pack of lost souls, as well as single tanks like archnotrones, knights and barons. Won't save you from viles, revenants and mancubi, though. Quite effective against Cybie.

Ammochain: this one is horribly horribly overpowered. This plus a modded plasmagun is nearly an instant win on any difficulty.

Cateye: I can't say I ever took this trait, because I never go for EE. But I suppose it's quite useful.

Fireangel: again, never really took it, but it sounds kind of not useful.

Blademaster and Vampyre: of this two, Vampyre is definitely more useful. Free health from weaker foes is great, and combined with Badass it allows you to regularly have health above the normal 100% limit. Blademaster, on the other hand, gives you an advantage over a pack of lost souls only. Quite dull, really.
 

[Sylph]

My impressions, as a fairly new player to doomRL (about a month, got 7 gold badges), is that *all* the master traits I've tried, with the exception of vampire, are grossly overpowered. The game is some 3-4 times easier once you get a master trait.

My basic breakdown:

Ammochain: incredible. Allows safe spamming of your weapon indefinately. If you're patient enough, you could do a lot of levels without ever getting to see an enemy. Plasma spam is a horrendously powerful, free attack. Loads of fun though!

Cateye - The most powerful of them all, by a massive degree. This is more down to intuition 2, really, but seeing an arch vile among a crowd of baddies without him seeing you is amazing. Still, the combination of intuition 2 and cateye is even better than ammochain - you can kill just about anything without it getting a chance to see you.


Vampyre: Seems reasonable

Blademaster:Not bought this yet - berserker and tough as nails feel too important for a melee build.

Fireangel:Not bought this yet, but I'd imagine it's amazing due to the 10 rockets per inventory space.

Gunkata - Again, incredible. Only downside is it trying to special reload unique pistols, but free reloads and gauranteed dodges with free shots after each dodge, in a real game, basically translates to instant flawless wins against any single opponents.


Having said the above, they are all rendered more reasonable when time is a factor. It seems to me the traits are very well balanced for nightmare difficulty.

[Karry]

There isn't the best, it just depends of your play style.

I didnt say "best", i said "useful". Meaning, i dont think that many of them should be in the game at all.

Ammochain: with it's requirements and without the trait you'll blow up any enemy pn sight with chainfire, but sooner or later(rather sooner) you'll run out of bullets. So this trait is VERY usefull if you know how to use it.

Except that even with 2 EoE _AND_ an accuracy mod you miss with chaingun about 1 in every 7 shots i'd say. Without that - who cares about running out of bullets, if you cant hit anything. Also the bullets are weaker, and going to hell without TAN is a certain death. 3 Revenants rockets are guaranteed to destroy red armour and leave you with 10-15% health. You cant kill a Revenant in that time with weak inaccurate bullets.

Cateye:also with requirements is rather usefull. You're lurking on the level, knowing that if you see enemy, he doesn't see you.

Except a) you dont actually always KNOW that, and b) there are waaaaaay more tiny maze levels than large hall levels, so it wont be always as useful as it can be.

Army of the Dead:designed for double shotgun rather, where armor is a HUGE problem. There even if close up into close quaters, 6 times armor is applied( if I'm correct).

What does that change ? For example, i can kill hell knight on average distance with average of 6 shots from combat shotgun. Finesse helps churn out those 6 shots. Now, i'm not at melee distance, it would take about 4 seconds to kill him, and i still get Hellrunner. With double shotgun it will take at least 4 seconds as well, possibly more, but you have to somehow get up close and dont dodge as well.

Okay, Fireangel sounds kinda fun, except that using it to its full potential will pretty much annihilate every useful item in the level, which isnt so great.

You need to shoot hell knights about three times with a double shotgun from minimal distance to put them down, and about five or six times for barons without this trait. And God help you if they are wearing armor. This trait, however, cuts down the number of required shots significantly.

Didnt actually noticed anything like that. Still kill barons in 3-4 shots minimum with the trait.

[ZZ]

I didnt say "best", i said "useful". Meaning, i dont think that many of them should be in the game at all.

No difference, really. Depends of game-style.

Except that even with 2 EoE _AND_ an accuracy mod you miss with chaingun about 1 in every 7 shots i'd say. Without that - who cares about running out of bullets, if you cant hit anything. Also the bullets are weaker, and going to hell without TAN is a certain death. 3 Revenants rockets are guaranteed to destroy red armour and leave you with 10-15% health. You cant kill a Revenant in that time with weak inaccurate bullets.

Hey, guy. Nobody uses chaingun with Ammochain if you have Plasmagun. It misses even more, but the average guy puts there 2-3 Agility mods.WK, remember? And with it, nobody even has time to shoot. Fin, remember? And bullets do 6.5 dmg, 10 bullets in a row, 2 rows at a turn(SoaB+TH+Fin). Is THAT weak?

[Jarkko]

I think Army of the Dead is more for combat shotties than double shotguns. Shotguns hit 100% of the time, even monsters which you don't see. The damage of a combat shotty is decent at long range after you get the armour piercing from the trait, especially with a power mod or two. 2 + 2 = shoot combat shotty down every hallway, if you hear a sound keep shooting until you hear no more. Double shotty would really benefit from HR + DM.

Ammochain is pretty much the same for plasma guns. With unlimited ammo you can kill stuff out of LOS pretty good without fear of retaliation. Ammochain is especially ridiculous on AoMC challenges where the plasma gets perfect to-hit and damage, becoming perhaps the best weapon to use in those challenges.

These tactics are kind of lame though and aren't much use in N! where stuff keeps respawning.

[Frankosity]

Personally, I don't like Gun Kata at all. It sounds good on paper, especially the free reloads, but the restrictions on it mean your damage per second is godawful. I'd rather get SoaB and kill everything without having to reload than having to dance around waiting to dodge an attack so I can get some free shots in.

Also, I find it's usefulness decreases exponentially when you get to the level that Revenants and Arch Viles start spawning in, and you're going to get your arse kicked in confined spaces whatever you're fighting.

I think Ammochain is overpowered. A more balanced version of the trait would be that you use ammo, but you never need to reload- the gun automatically feeds itself from the ammo in your inventory.

[Madtrixr]

I think Ammochain is overpowered. A more balanced version of the trait would be that you use ammo, but you never need to reload- the gun automatically feeds itself from the ammo in your inventory.

Actually, That's a really good idea.

[AStranger]

My 2 cents.

Ammochain: I think it's broken for some of the earlier difficulties, but I think it's a good fit for the game given what N! is like. Sometimes you just need to kill a ridiculous amount of mobs just to be able to get to more ammo, other times you are in the arachnotron caves and reloading is just time you don't have. Plus it 'unlocks' the ability to shoot in the dark like shotguns can without draining all your ammo (picture an open area, one shotgun blast covers a decent amount of squares, I would estimate it takes ~3-5 volleys from a chain weapon to cover the same ground, 1 shell vs half a stack of cells?). The only thing I would change is that it shouldn't block SoG, mainly because pistols don't work with ammochain and I would like to take both traits during an Ao100 run.

Fireangel: I only really took this during my last AoPc run, but I like it. Probably because I like juggler and badass, so it's only one extra level of traits to unlock if I'm not doing something specific. I think this is the most versatile master trait spanning all weapon types. Every other trait either requires a certain weapon type(s) or heavily favors one (Cat eye).

Cateye: Never been a huge fan of it, even in earlier versions when it wasn't a master trait. It has a decent fan base though, so I say it's a keeper.

Army of the Dead: How can you pretend to be Ash without it? The reality is that trying to kill a mob with some amount of armor isn't a great situation without plasma. Given that plasma halves armor protection, shotguns really need some help in terms of taking down harder mobs to compete. Although blocking HR is kinda rough, it might be too broken if you could have DM and MAD.

Gun Kata: Pistols need help. I have no complaints with this other then it doesn't play nice-nice with uniques, but I'm assuming that'll be fixed. Actually pistols need so much help that my last AoMr run I had to resort to punching the Cyberdemon to death. I should just keep more ammo I guess, but pistols do need a master trait.

Blademaster: Never taken it.

Vampyre: I'm glad to see most other people think this is reasonable because every time I've taken it I get afraid that it is too good and that it will get nerfed. Maybe it's just my play style because I notice more of the AoB mortems have Blademaster then Vampyre. Although given that ~70% of my Cyberdemon kills are melee and the LS is my most commonly found artifact, I might just like melee too much.

[Fanta Hege]

Okay, time for my break down!

Ammochain;
I personal favorite. The godly I win button when you have the right mods. One Agility, One power on a regular plasmagun alone, with chainfire = 1 Volley killing Archviles and you still have time to shoot about everything else. Best part? No ammo use. You will have a deathgun like no other. Who cares about no TAN when your enemies can't even have the time to shoot you.

FireAngel;
Truly usefull for all the Impatience, Pacifist and Macosimn games, also I'd highly recommend this for other UV and N! games too, due of the fact that it makes Mancubi a joke. Regulary, one Mancubi will most likely destroy you if it gets the time to shoot twice. With fireangel, you can LAUGH at them. You will also be able to spam rocket launcher as much as you want taking big mobs out with no trouble. Unfortunantly due of the blocking SoaB and HellRunner, this is still rather questionable to use.


CatEye;
More usefull then people think, mostly due of the int regruitments alone. I personaly always use this for Purity runs. The extra time you get for shooting people at the long range and the extra sigth are helpfull also for finding items faster and safely shooting enemies otherwise. The blocked traits also pose no big trouble. However I wouldn't really use this too much over Ammochain or fireangel on normal games.


GunKata; Very nice for Marksman games, but thats it. Also the fact that its broken with uniques makes it bit meh. I really wouldn't use this otherwise.

Army of the Death;
Extreemly usefull! With many of the higher level enemies having armor and all, this will make killing them so much more easier. If you're a fan of shotguns, this is a definat pick up. The blocked traits however block hellrunner which is rather anoying if you'd prefer a double shotty to the face tactic. I personaly find this to be the most best trait balance wise.

Blademaster;
One of my favorites again, just because it will make killing big pile of enemies much easier. After finding LS, this will truly shine in Berserk games. It will make the nightmare pain elemental caves easy and if you ever find yourself surrounded by revenants and vile pack, just get in the middle of the bunch and STAB STAB STAB.

Vampyre;
Never used this, but if you're more of a sneaky person and prefer to save your HP or are low on healthpacks otherwise, I guess this could be quite a handy trait. But I'd still personaly pick Blademaster over this.

[Sylph]

Blademaster;
One of my favorites again, just because it will make killing big pile of enemies much easier. After finding LS, this will truly shine in Berserk games. It will make the nightmare pain elemental caves easy

You should try Vampyre with that level - I came out with 200% health and enough berserk to last me 2 more levels! With vampyre, pain elementals are basically a replenishing supercharge.

[Const]

It's my opinion:

Ammochain: Suicide? Not at all. It's lightly overpowered, but I think it's OK because normal game must be easier than challenge anyway. Only real disadvantage - no EE, but "thre are no perfect things in the world". Better than reloader3 (you need not even reload) an backpack  (you wlill have INFINITE ammo). IDKFA trait.
Army of the Dead: I don't know, how to win without it in AoSg, if no good uniques, as Jackhammer.
Gun kata: Not very good, by low firepower. But right tactics can make it useful, I think.

Others I don't try.
Blademaster&Vampire: good for melee, but it's all I can say.
CatEye:
Good - no hard limitatons. Bad - no good advantages. Anyway, I prefer Int2.
Fireangel - not very good. I think offensive build is better for defensive. Only for fans of RL.

The only thing I would change is that it shouldn't block SoG, mainly because pistols don't work with ammochain

Beretta works. And it would be too powerful with SoG 3 and Ammochain.