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Author Topic: Nightmare difficulty - how?!? (update - demo now included for critique)  (Read 11327 times)

Sylph

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Hi folks...
I've been playing nightmare difficulty recently. It seems the common concensus from the post mortem boards is that ammochain is the easiest nightmare build, so I'm giving that a try. However, I figure I need the agility mods from the chained court in order to do this, and that means a rocket launcher. Without agility mods from chained court, I've not even managed to get into hell (furthest I got was level 13)

Reading the mortems, it seems players are clearing the arena (I assume for the rocket launcher)... I just can't for the life of me figure out how to tackle this. My closest game managed to kill 1 baron, but there was another baron, and a handful of other demons, still in there, and it cost me 5 medikits and 200 shotgun shells (plus a bunch of 10mm)... I still died.

I'm here to ask if anyone has a video, or a decent set of guidelines, on how to clear the arena on nightmare difficulty. Without even spending a turn waiting for anything to happen, I still spend nearly all my turns shooting monsters, and end up running out of ammo...
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 14:55 by Sylph »
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Sylph

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Re: Nightmare arena - how?!?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2009, 07:47 »

I managed to complete the arena on nightmare - by bringing 300 shotgun shells and a combat shotgun, then just blind spamming endless shotgun fire around assorted corners. Must have killed the same cacodemons some 15 times each! Still cost me 4 medikits and 2 suits of green though.

Still hoping for some tips for nightmare play though - I'm totally stumped... I can be killing former humans in a doorway to prevent them respawning, but then when a baron of hell walks around the corner, what do I do? Do I run or stand and fight?
I've tried both answers so I really must be missing something here - running makes me end up in the caves knee-deep in arachnotrons with not much experience and no treasure (ammo,  health packs and armour) , but standing and fighting in such situations slowly wears me down until eventually, if I'm very lucky, I arive in the caves knee-deep in arachnotrons with experience and no treasure... Either way, those spiders crucify me - I'm stumped!

Ultra violence is an absolute walk in the park, but this nightmare difficulty is excruciating and I want my mum! (Or a little help here)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 07:56 by Sylph »
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Fanta Hege

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2009, 09:33 »

Well to be honest with you, Arena on Nightmare is a large pain and I personaly wouldn't really recommend it too much considering on Nightmare you have way higher chances of getting good weapons from the possibly vaults that might spawn on the early levels.

However, your best bet to beat it is to hope for a friendly amount of good pillar positions.

Few tips;

-Corner shoot a lot and a lot.

-Keep your distance from the barons and CHAINSHOOT THEM. If you started your Ammochain build with SOAB, and cleared the first two levels extreemly well, you should be level 3 by Arena, which means you would have Soab, Soab, TH. This makes your chaingun deadly and way better for taking out Caco's and Barons. Basicly scout with shotgun, and when they are in the vision use the Chaingun.  If they are very very close or in the meelee then give them a shotgun blast for maximun damage aswell unless they are almost dead.

-Make sure the bodies don't get the suprise you. Try kill the enemies into a pile, and not too spread. If they are very spread around you will have trouble with them.

-When you're looting, be quick.


Also generally killing barons and hell knights, I'd recommend trying to lure them behind a small pool of lava/acid and shoot them from afar as they are stuck, good way to do this is with barrels. But if you're ammochain building, hell knights and barons should fall quite quickly to chainshooting with chaingun and plasmagun.
But still, try avoid direct barons fights unless you have Blue armor or better and you're overcharged in health.

Also few small general tips;
-If you're fighting near water/lava/acid, make the finishing shot in close with a shotgun or rocket launcher if you're taking distance to knock them to water/lava/acid thus disposing the body.
-Abuse berserk packs and invulnerabilities as much as you can, as they give double time in Nightmare.
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AStranger

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2009, 14:17 »

I think the easiest trait for N! depends on your play style. Generally I only take ammochain for Ao100 or for a specific challenge I think it will work well for (AoMC actually), but that has a lot to do how I play. My 'standard' N! build as of late has been Bru->Bru->Ber->TaN->TaN->Bad->MVm->Bru->TaN, but that's because I think melee is fun.

In terms of the most useful N! hints I can give is that I play UV and N! a lot differently. UV I take my time, meticulously clearing the level and searching for power-ups. This works well because of the fact that mobs stay dead, so you have all the time in the world. In N! every in-game moment counts, so I'm much more likely to just grab power-ups as I see them, not when they could give me the most benefit. The less time spent walking around, the less time things can spend raising. Killing a mob twice does no good unless it is dropping ammo that you need. If you find the stairs you need/want to take, really think about if you need to go try to grab another small medpack ~40 steps away, or if you can do without it. To put it in perspective, out of the few times I've done the Mortuary in N!, I don't think I ever bothered finding the Angelic Armor, because it wasn't worth the risk (which makes me wonder why I do the Mortuary in the first place....).

I generally stay out of Hell's Arena in N! unless I've found a combat shotgun and even then I still have to feel good about the medpack /power-up situation. A few factors that play into that are that I generally get TaN and not HR, I use technical mods on weapons over agility and the agility usually go on boots to make up for no HR. My last ammochain character went firing speed instead of accuracy, so it's not much a loss for me not to pass up the free agility mods in the Court regardless of my traits, but again, it's my play style. Although if you want to do the Arena, a combat shotgun is a near must. Shoot in the dark until something hurts, then keep shooting until you can see it. At that point it's up to you which weapon you feel better about. Keep all the corpses near the center, ideally so there is very little walking involved to kill everything, because the faster things die, the less you have to kill. This is the reason I prefer the combat shotgun over the chaingun, shooting one target often hurts 1-3 that you can't see, softening them up before they can see/attack you.

In the end, my rambling comes down to do everything as quick as possible (in-game not real-time, it's not uncommon for me to stop in the middle of combat for 30 seconds or so to really consider my next step or two).

Also few small general tips;
-If you're fighting near water/lava/acid, make the finishing shot in close with a shotgun or rocket launcher if you're taking distance to knock them to water/lava/acid thus disposing the body.
-Abuse berserk packs and invulnerabilities as much as you can, as they give double time in Nightmare.
These are definitely worth stating again, I pretend I'm almost invulnerable when I'm berserk and less corpses is just more better.
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AStranger

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2009, 16:52 »

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the most important thing of all, sheer luck. Lots of it. Probably more luck then the average person gets in a life time. There are just way too many things (levels) that go instantly wrong. If you aren't lucky enough to get 'winnable' levels, tough luck, start over. I'd say at least 85% of my N! characters die early level, 10% die after level 20, the other 5% die between levels ~7-20. Maybe I'm just good after I've gotten started, but really I think it has to do with the insane amount of luck that is required to get the character through the early levels. After that it's just hoping you don't get screwed with a bad arachnatron cave layout, a bad starting room or all the tough mobs on the level hanging out around the stairs, probably a few things I'm forgetting also.

So yeah, good luck.
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Passionario

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2009, 03:37 »

I think the easiest trait for N! depends on your play style.

This.

(For comparison, 90% of my N! games begin with me beelining towards Intuition2)
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UnderAPaleGreySky

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2009, 04:10 »

A fine tactic indeed. You NEED to know where all those monsters are, so you can avoid getting instakilled when you open doors.
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Dervis

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2009, 06:02 »

Hi folks...
I've been playing nightmare difficulty recently. It seems the common concensus from the post mortem boards is that ammochain is the easiest nightmare build, so I'm giving that a try. However, I figure I need the agility mods from the chained court in order to do this, and that means a rocket launcher.
You can get the agility mods from the Chained Court without a rocket launcher relatively easily, so you don't need to win the Arena just for it.
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UnderAPaleGreySky

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2009, 06:25 »

Was wondering when Dervis or Blade would stumble in on this thread :P

But about N! difficulty.. I tend to play AoMC.. high risk, high pay-off :D
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rax

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2009, 09:27 »

You can get the agility mods from the Chained Court without a rocket launcher relatively easily, so you don't need to win the Arena just for it.

Really? Sorry if I'm asking something that should be obvious, but how?
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Madtrixr

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2009, 09:45 »

The Wiki says use the Cacodemons, but can they destroy walls? Or am I missing something?

EDIT: I just thought about Phase Devices.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 09:46 by Madtrixr »
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UnderAPaleGreySky

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2009, 23:10 »

Can Caco's destroy the Chained Court walls? I shall check.

EDIT: Answer - Not in any way I can produce.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 23:16 by UnderAPaleGreySky »
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Fanta Hege

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2009, 01:57 »

...
You guys realize thise Cacodemons are Barons in N!, right?
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UnderAPaleGreySky

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2009, 02:44 »

Yes, but we were discusing the Caco's mentioned in the wiki.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 02:45 by UnderAPaleGreySky »
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Fanta Hege

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2009, 04:12 »

The wiki is probably not updated then, as the caco's got nerfed in this version.
They were able to blow up walls on 9.9.8 though
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UnderAPaleGreySky

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2009, 04:17 »

There' A LOT about the wiki that remains to be updated, and a its a community project, it up to us to fix it! :P

I assume you mean 0.9.8? 'Cos 0.9.9.8 is only available to those of us with time machine access :P
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Sylph

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2009, 18:48 »

Using barons to destroy walls had already occured to me, but I discounted it as being somewhat difficult to put into practice...
I assumed that paddling in lava, then getting the baron to leave the room to come after you, etc, would be too much trouble.

However, after thinking a little more (and reading the posts here), I'm assuming it's best just to get the barons to destroy the walls of the chainsaw-holding start room, then work from there.


Cheers for the help chaps. I think I'll give intuition another try - I've found it by far the most powerful trait on other skill levels, so why not eh?
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Sylph

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2009, 13:50 »

I'm seriously doing something vastly wrong here... Considering some people who post post-mortems here speculate about nightmare being easier than ultra-violence.... I can play on ultra violence and pretty much gaurantee a win through patience. On nightmare, basically the first hell knight I see is an almost insurmountable hurdle - I end up killing it once, and running past it,because trapping it in a door or leading it to water costs far too much health.

Furthermore, IMPs completely baffle me - since you can't lead them around with items, I basically can't figure out a single way of stopping them from leaving respawning corpses all over the middle of the level.


In short, I'm fine until I meet a good gang of imps or a hell knight, at which point my strategy becomes 'leave this level now or die'.... After 5 or 6 levels like that, I've got no armour, no healthpacks left, and I'll come across a revenant or a baron or something that just completely prevents me from getting any further. More tips would be really helpful. I'm including a demo here as an example of my playstyle, in the hope that someone could take a glimpse at it and let me know what I'm doing wrong:

http://sylph.me.uk/doomrl/nightmaredeath.dm2
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 14:48 by Sylph »
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Ruldra

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I started playing N! recently and so far I'm getting my ass kicked (in my best run I reached level 12, stupid arachno caves). The ammochain build just isn't working for me, the early traits doesn't benefit the weapons available at the time (shotguns get minimal benefit, chaingun misses way too much to benefit from SoaB and Triggerhappy). I never survived long enough to pick ammochain.

So I tried going for a Cateye build and my game improved a lot. With Eagle Eye most of the chaingun bullets actually hit. Intuition lets you manage enemies better, sense valuable powerups and, more importantly, increases your chance to find loot (when you know there are no enemies in a room, you're more likely to go there and search for items). If you survive long enough for Cateye then you can kill enemies from afar.

It's gonna take me some time to beat N! but at least knowing which build to go for is a good start.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 15:54 by Ruldra »
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raekuul

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Re: Nightmare difficulty - how?!?
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2009, 16:28 »

On the one hand, Nightmare difficulty is supposed to be the ultimate challenge, where your primary concern isn't "Wreck Hell as much as possible", but rather "DAMN HOW'M I GONNA SURVIVE?".

On the other hand, by the time you've gotten to Nightmare, you're already in the habit of getting as close to 100% as you possibly can. So, out of sheer habit, you're going to make them dead before going to the next level. That's where the difficulty is supposed to come from.

HOWEVER: Once you start to shift from "Kickin' Ass" back to "Savin' MY Ass", like back when you played DooM RL for the very first (hundered) times, you start to pick up habits built around surviving in nearly impossible conditions. Which means that you stop caring about posting your Ultra Violence warmup wins - leading to the assumption that, since there are more N! mortems worth reading than UV mortems worth reading, N! must be easier in some bizarre way.

Nightmare Mode: Where "Basic Survival Skills Trumps Hours Upon Hours Of Finely-Honed Hunting Tactics Nine Times Out Of Thirteen", and "The Strategy Of 'Kill Them Before They Kill You' Only Makes Them Angry".

(For comparison, 90% of my N! games begin with me beelining towards Intuition2)
(He wins the other 10%)
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Fanta Hege

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Ammochain build has its little trick to pull it off.
It is the best to consentrade on using shotguns till the point you find a plasmagun and only use the chaingun on bigger baddies.
Shotguns DO Benefit from SOAB a lot.

The thing is that to win in Nightmare you are going to have to be able to kick ass and survive. Otherwise you won't be able to get your levels.

The best way to win in Nightmare is to corner shoot and scout a lot to kill all the bastards before they see you. Ofcourse if you want a berserk or invulnerability, then you should go on a rampage.

Imps are one of the biggest problem of Nightmare as they are very un predictable.


 
Few more tips;
-Always check the vaults(not the special level) if you get a level feeling about them, even though they are usualy filled with cacodemons, the loot is more then worth the risk. I've many times found a plasmagun on level 2 due of vaults.
-Open door, shoot, close door, reload, open door, shoot..
-Abuse barrels. Lots of corpses? Acid barrel over them and fire, no more corpses.
-Imps first, then the hellknight.
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Sylph

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Cheers Fanta & Raekuul. I managed to get a win on AoMC N!, but I dont really think AoMC is a proper nightmare game. Being able to kill a hell knight or arachnotron in a single turn makes the most difficult situations in nightmare (early hellknight, arach caves etc) a little easy.

Recently Ive been trying out starting with finesse and getting juggler at level 2. For me its working a fair bit better than bee-lining straight to ammochain, due to the ability to juggle shotguns. Getting 3 knockback shots in a row without a single turn reloading can often allow me to set up a baron-killing knockback lock, and of course scouting for imps is invaluable. With any luck Ill have a standard nightmare game finished soon, and until then Ill just have to settle for my poor N! AoMC substitute. :)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 02:36 by Sylph »
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