00:16 < MaiZure> Hmm - you know I havent seen it either
00:16 < MaiZure> That is miss
00:16 < MaiZure> er that is unlikely considering the number of games I've played
00:19 < Tavana> You look on the forum and see what you missed, MaiZure?
00:19 < MaiZure> yup
00:20 < MaiZure> Rather than throwing out more proposed changes, I should back it up to explain why we need a change
00:21 < Tavana> I was talking more about what you missed in IRC.
00:21 < MaiZure> Hmm that yappity yap thread?
00:21 < Tavana> Aye.
00:22 < Tavana> But yes, I think people need to understand why it could be a very good idea before they'll accept it.
00:22 < MaiZure> I just see a bunch of rp stuff
00:23 < thelaptop|work> but RP != grinding
00:23 < MaiZure> amusing :P
00:24 < thelaptop|work> there's a reason why i don't play CRPGs all that much
00:24 < thelaptop|work> too much grinding involved
00:24 < thelaptop|work> very pointless
00:24 < Tavana> So you're more a fan of something like Tales of Symphonia?
00:25 < thelaptop|work> Tavana: i've not played that yet
00:25 < thelaptop|work> so consider the devil may cry series
00:25 < thelaptop|work> i've only played 4 on the PC, so bear with me
00:25 < thelaptop|work> it's a grind in a sense, but you are not limited by what you can choose for traits
00:25 < Tavana> (click, read) x 47, (kill monster) x 17, (click, read) x 23, (kill boss) x1, (click, read) x 71, et cetera
00:26 < thelaptop|work> as in, yes, there's some resource allocation for skills
00:26 < thelaptop|work> but you get to choose what skills you want
00:26 < Dave-C> HOLY CRAP A BULLET POINT
00:26 < thelaptop|work> so maybe some thing similar can help
00:26 < thelaptop|work> Dave-C: huh what?
00:26 < Tavana> o.o
00:26 < Dave-C> Theres a bullet point in a walkthrough I'm reading. Where it shouldn't be. -.-
00:26 < thelaptop|work> oh
00:27 < thelaptop|work> non sequitor
00:27 < thelaptop|work> MaiZure: i hope you got what i'm trying to say here
00:27 < MaiZure> hmm
00:28 < thelaptop|work> hand hold, but still give the player a chance to choose what kind of game he/she wants to play
00:28 < MaiZure> yup
00:28 < thelaptop|work> that's why the current system is so win -- you don't have to deliberately follow a set path just to unlock the modes that you want to play
00:29 < MaiZure> yup - I agree
00:30 < thelaptop|work> though i must add that the system should be forgiving enough that the player can "undo" a choice if he/she realises that maybe that advanced trait he/she selected earlier is not cool enough for him/her
00:30 < thelaptop|work> we want people to try new things but don't want to make it too rigid
00:30 < MaiZure> Good points
00:30 < MaiZure> I guess the problem I was really trying to overcome doesn't really apply to most of us on the forum
00:31 < thelaptop|work> probably
00:31 < MaiZure> Here's an example
00:31 < MaiZure> in 2006 or so, DoomRL got passed around my undergrad CS department and so about 50 of us got really in to it for a few weeks
00:32 < MaiZure> in the end, only about 5 of the 50 even beat cybie and the rest got bored with their lack of personal progress and quit...they didnt have anything to do at the ITYTD or HNTR levels
00:33 < MaiZure> At the end - I was the only one of 50 people who actually got on to the forum
00:33 < MaiZure> Obviously if youre on the forum - that 'problem' doesnt concern you at all
00:34 < thelaptop|work> okay, that i can understand
00:34 < MaiZure> I guess I would like to see the retainment rate up for early players who give up
00:34 < MaiZure> not make it easier per say, but give more goals to chase for them
00:34 < thelaptop|work> yes
00:34 < thelaptop|work> more goals == good
00:34 < thelaptop|work> but deliberately restricting and having a set route of advancement -- probably not so good
00:35 < thelaptop|work> can be more frustrating
00:35 < MaiZure> understood - and agree
00:35 < thelaptop|work> i guess we can have copper badges
00:35 < thelaptop|work> heheheh
00:35 < MaiZure> That forum post was more about getting people thinking about that problem
00:35 < thelaptop|work> "reach level 5 of AoMr"
00:36 < thelaptop|work> consider two phases i suppose
00:36 < thelaptop|work> "training marine" and "normal core marine"
00:36 < thelaptop|work> give goals for "training marine phase"
00:36 < MaiZure> hmm ok
00:36 < thelaptop|work> but do not limit the player in the actual game play
00:37 < thelaptop|work> think of the training phase as a "tutorial" of sorts
00:37 < thelaptop|work> slightly more hand-holding
00:37 < thelaptop|work> but at the same time, always have the opportunity to do more stuff
00:37 -!- Tavana [HydraIRC@115.128.35.42] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC ->
http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it]
00:38 < thelaptop|work> we could always start at Recruit
00:38 < thelaptop|work> give them a nice set of copper badges, you know 19 in total
00:38 < MaiZure> yes
00:38 < thelaptop|work> tell them to get about 5 of those to get to private
00:38 < thelaptop|work> but we "lock" the game as per the usual rank structure
00:39 < MaiZure> I like ZZ's approach there
00:39 < MaiZure> He had an interesting idea, to say the least
00:39 < thelaptop|work> true
00:39 < thelaptop|work> but consider not new player
00:40 < thelaptop|work> your old geezers would be a little pissed that they need to replay all of that again
00:40 < thelaptop|work> i'm usually in favour of less restrictions
00:40 < thelaptop|work> and let the player decide how he/she wants to play
00:40 < MaiZure> Me too, generally
00:40 < thelaptop|work> copper badges!
00:40 < thelaptop|work> or plastic badges
00:40 < thelaptop|work> hahahaha
00:40 < thelaptop|work> that'd be cool
00:41 < MaiZure> Im fairly sure that the true average skill of a DoomRL player is less than even what Malek described
00:41 < MaiZure> At the end of the day, I want DoomRL 2 and Stardreamer :P
00:42 < thelaptop|work> a true average skill doomrl player probably cannot safely get to leel 12 easily
00:42 < thelaptop|work> aah lag
00:42 < MaiZure> exactly
00:42 < thelaptop|work> level
00:42 < MaiZure> those people, on average, can get maybe 3 badges
00:42 < thelaptop|work> but that is also true of all roguelikes
00:42 < MaiZure> because they cant even unlock the ranks to open the challenge modes
00:42 < thelaptop|work> the starting game is always annoying
00:42 < thelaptop|work> for a long while until you get used to it
00:43 < ContraDuck> An average doomrl player is winning occasionally on easy and not winning at all on medium.
00:43 < MaiZure> I debate that, Contra
00:43 < ContraDuck> most of my irl friends are at that stage now.
00:43 < MaiZure> An average forum member, maybe
00:44 < thelaptop|work> hmmm
00:44 < thelaptop|work> i can hold me own in medium heheheh
00:44 < thelaptop|work> hard... icky
00:45 < thelaptop|work> UV is just painful
00:45 < thelaptop|work> i should do a fist run to get a badge
00:45 < thelaptop|work> s/badge/medal/
00:46 < MaiZure> But even at what Contra says, those people aren't likely to find the game interesting enough to stick around for the long haul
00:46 < MaiZure> let alone want to donate for DRL2 development ;)
00:46 < MaiZure> The real ambition here
00:47 < thelaptop|work> again, roguelikes
00:47 < thelaptop|work> they appeal not to the general public
00:47 < thelaptop|work> we lose on "in-depth play", "engaging play" and "stunning graphics"
00:47 < ContraDuck> most people who play a roguelike will play it a couple of times and then forget about it.
00:47 < thelaptop|work> heck, we don't even have a storyline
00:47 < thelaptop|work> it takes a certain kind of person to play a roguelike less than casually
00:48 < MaiZure> yup yup
00:48 < thelaptop|work> to borrow from wolf3d: set up a very easy mode to work with the copper badges
00:48 < thelaptop|work> aka "can i play, daddy?"
00:49 < MaiZure> How about just Training Badges
00:49 < MaiZure> rather than Copper
00:49 < thelaptop|work> sounds good
00:49 < MaiZure> I know - its all semantics
00:49 < thelaptop|work> i was just trying to follow the scheme
00:50 < MaiZure> At least veterans can have contests to see who can get all 19 in one run
00:50 < MaiZure> :P
00:51 < thelaptop|work> so here're some ideas: 3x ammo spawned, even fewer monsters, monsters get -1 penalty, get half damage from acid & lava, level 1's hp can't be picked up by monsters, score is quartered, small healing items heal 30HP instead of 10, armour shards repair 75% instead of 25%, powerups last three times as long, exp gained from monsters increased by 50-60%
00:51 < MaiZure> And no Cybie at the end
00:51 < thelaptop|work> okay, no cybie
00:51 < thelaptop|work> as usual, UC and mortuary does not spawn
00:52 < MaiZure> Otherwise, we'd have people spamming training to get their 100 cybie kills
00:52 < thelaptop|work> i think we can just give them one BoH as the final boss
00:52 < thelaptop|work> and restrict the spawned monsters
00:52 < thelaptop|work> kinda like in Doom 1
00:52 < MaiZure> Just like the first episode of Doom 1
00:52 < thelaptop|work> act 1
00:52 < thelaptop|work> yep!
00:53 < MaiZure> So do me a favor, laptop
00:53 < MaiZure> Post this in the thread :P
00:53 < thelaptop|work> rofl
00:53 < thelaptop|work> soooo long...
00:53 < thelaptop|work> i'll put it in
00:54 * MaiZure gives two thumbs up