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[thelaptop]

So MaiZure and I discussed this more over IRC and we have come up with some refinements on the original idea.

We begin the ranking of the player at Recruit and institute a new series of badges, tentatively known as Training Badges.  These Training Badges are designed to provide even more incentives to the new players as more achievable goals as compared to that of the Bronze Badges.  Like all the badge schemes, this one will have 19, and should involve things that are easily attainable by the new player (less tough than Bronze Badges).  Note that being at Recruit does not have any specific limitations -- all Challenge Modes and Difficulty Levels available at Private are still available at Recruit and successfully reaching Level 12 of a normal game (ITYTD and above difficulty) immediately promotes the player to Private.

The badges are tied in to a new difficulty level of Very Easy, tentatively named "Train Me Up, Sir".  In this difficulty level, we have the following properties:

• Noted as T in the highscore table
  
• Thrice the amount of ammunition spawned
• Spawned monsters are fewer than in M (similar in number to those in E)
  
• Monsters get a -1 penalty to hit
• Only Former Humans, Former Sergeants, Imps, Demons, and Cacodemons can spawn in normal levels (just like in Episode 1 of Doom 1)
• Cyberdemon is replaced with a single Baron of Hell
• Levels that do not spawn in E do not spawn here either
  
• Player gets half damage from acid and lava
• Level 1's HP packs can't be picked up by monsters
• Score is quartered
• Small healing items heal 30HP instead of 10
• Armour shards repair for 75% instead of 25%
• Powerups last thrice as long
• Experience gained from monsters is increased by 50%

This addition should provide the necessary hand-holding/"tutorial" period for the new player while at the same time not restricting the veteran player who wants to jump in and go badge collecting.

Original IRC log:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

00:16 < MaiZure> Hmm - you know I havent seen it either
00:16 < MaiZure> That is miss
00:16 < MaiZure> er that is unlikely considering the number of games I've played
00:19 < Tavana> You look on the forum and see what you missed, MaiZure?
00:19 < MaiZure> yup
00:20 < MaiZure> Rather than throwing out more proposed changes, I should back it up to explain why we need a change
00:21 < Tavana> I was talking more about what you missed in IRC.
00:21 < MaiZure> Hmm that yappity yap thread?
00:21 < Tavana> Aye.
00:22 < Tavana> But yes, I think people need to understand why it could be a very good idea before they'll accept it.
00:22 < MaiZure> I just see a bunch of rp stuff
00:23 < thelaptop|work> but RP != grinding
00:23 < MaiZure> amusing :P
00:24 < thelaptop|work> there's a reason why i don't play CRPGs all that much
00:24 < thelaptop|work> too much grinding involved
00:24 < thelaptop|work> very pointless
00:24 < Tavana> So you're more a fan of something like Tales of Symphonia?
00:25 < thelaptop|work> Tavana: i've not played that yet
00:25 < thelaptop|work> so consider the devil may cry series
00:25 < thelaptop|work> i've only played 4 on the PC, so bear with me
00:25 < thelaptop|work> it's a grind in a sense, but you are not limited by what you can choose for traits
00:25 < Tavana> (click, read) x 47, (kill monster) x 17, (click, read) x 23, (kill boss) x1, (click, read) x 71, et cetera
00:26 < thelaptop|work> as in, yes, there's some resource allocation for skills
00:26 < thelaptop|work> but you get to choose what skills you want
00:26 < Dave-C> HOLY CRAP A BULLET POINT
00:26 < thelaptop|work> so maybe some thing similar can help
00:26 < thelaptop|work> Dave-C: huh what?
00:26 < Tavana> o.o
00:26 < Dave-C> Theres a bullet point in a walkthrough I'm reading. Where it shouldn't be. -.-
00:26 < thelaptop|work> oh
00:27 < thelaptop|work> non sequitor
00:27 < thelaptop|work> MaiZure: i hope you got what i'm trying to say here
00:27 < MaiZure> hmm
00:28 < thelaptop|work> hand hold, but still give the player a chance to choose what kind of game he/she wants to play
00:28 < MaiZure> yup
00:28 < thelaptop|work> that's why the current system is so win -- you don't have to deliberately follow a set path just to unlock the modes that you want to play
00:29 < MaiZure> yup - I agree
00:30 < thelaptop|work> though i must add that the system should be forgiving enough that the player can "undo" a choice if he/she realises that maybe that advanced trait he/she selected earlier is not cool enough for him/her
00:30 < thelaptop|work> we want people to try new things but don't want to make it too rigid
00:30 < MaiZure> Good points
00:30 < MaiZure> I guess the problem I was really trying to overcome doesn't really apply to most of us on the forum
00:31 < thelaptop|work> probably
00:31 < MaiZure> Here's an example
00:31 < MaiZure> in 2006 or so, DoomRL got passed around my undergrad CS department and so about 50 of us got really in to it for a few weeks
00:32 < MaiZure> in the end, only about 5 of the 50 even beat cybie and the rest got bored with their lack of personal progress and quit...they didnt have anything to do at the ITYTD or HNTR levels
00:33 < MaiZure> At the end - I was the only one of 50 people who actually got on to the forum
00:33 < MaiZure> Obviously if youre on the forum - that 'problem' doesnt concern you at all
00:34 < thelaptop|work> okay, that i can understand
00:34 < MaiZure> I guess I would like to see the retainment rate up for early players who give up
00:34 < MaiZure> not make it easier per say, but give more goals to chase for them
00:34 < thelaptop|work> yes
00:34 < thelaptop|work> more goals == good
00:34 < thelaptop|work> but deliberately restricting and having a set route of advancement -- probably not so good
00:35 < thelaptop|work> can be more frustrating
00:35 < MaiZure> understood - and agree
00:35 < thelaptop|work> i guess we can have copper badges
00:35 < thelaptop|work> heheheh
00:35 < MaiZure> That forum post was more about getting people thinking about that problem
00:35 < thelaptop|work> "reach level 5 of AoMr"
00:36 < thelaptop|work> consider two phases i suppose
00:36 < thelaptop|work> "training marine" and "normal core marine"
00:36 < thelaptop|work> give goals for "training marine phase"
00:36 < MaiZure> hmm ok
00:36 < thelaptop|work> but do not limit the player in the actual game play
00:37 < thelaptop|work> think of the training phase as a "tutorial" of sorts
00:37 < thelaptop|work> slightly more hand-holding
00:37 < thelaptop|work> but at the same time, always have the opportunity to do more stuff
00:37 -!- Tavana [HydraIRC@115.128.35.42] has quit [Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it]
00:38 < thelaptop|work> we could always start at Recruit
00:38 < thelaptop|work> give them a nice set of copper badges, you know 19 in total
00:38 < MaiZure> yes
00:38 < thelaptop|work> tell them to get about 5 of those to get to private
00:38 < thelaptop|work> but we "lock" the game as per the usual rank structure
00:39 < MaiZure> I like ZZ's approach there
00:39 < MaiZure> He had an interesting idea, to say the least
00:39 < thelaptop|work> true
00:39 < thelaptop|work> but consider not new player
00:40 < thelaptop|work> your old geezers would be a little pissed that they need to replay all of that again
00:40 < thelaptop|work> i'm usually in favour of less restrictions
00:40 < thelaptop|work> and let the player decide how he/she wants to play
00:40 < MaiZure> Me too, generally
00:40 < thelaptop|work> copper badges!
00:40 < thelaptop|work> or plastic badges
00:40 < thelaptop|work> hahahaha
00:40 < thelaptop|work> that'd be cool
00:41 < MaiZure> Im fairly sure that the true average skill of a DoomRL player is less than even what Malek described
00:41 < MaiZure> At the end of the day, I want DoomRL 2 and Stardreamer :P
00:42 < thelaptop|work> a true average skill doomrl player probably cannot safely get to leel 12 easily
00:42 < thelaptop|work> aah lag
00:42 < MaiZure> exactly
00:42 < thelaptop|work> level
00:42 < MaiZure> those people, on average, can get maybe 3 badges
00:42 < thelaptop|work> but that is also true of all roguelikes
00:42 < MaiZure> because they cant even unlock the ranks to open the challenge modes
00:42 < thelaptop|work> the starting game is always annoying
00:42 < thelaptop|work> for a long while until you get used to it
00:43 < ContraDuck> An average doomrl player is winning occasionally on easy and not winning at all on medium.
00:43 < MaiZure> I debate that, Contra
00:43 < ContraDuck> most of my irl friends are at that stage now.
00:43 < MaiZure> An average forum member, maybe
00:44 < thelaptop|work> hmmm
00:44 < thelaptop|work> i can hold me own in medium heheheh
00:44 < thelaptop|work> hard... icky
00:45 < thelaptop|work> UV is just painful
00:45 < thelaptop|work> i should do a fist run to get a badge
00:45 < thelaptop|work> s/badge/medal/
00:46 < MaiZure> But even at what Contra says, those people aren't likely to find the game interesting enough to stick around for the long haul
00:46 < MaiZure> let alone want to donate for DRL2 development ;)
00:46 < MaiZure> The real ambition here
00:47 < thelaptop|work> again, roguelikes
00:47 < thelaptop|work> they appeal not to the general public
00:47 < thelaptop|work> we lose on "in-depth play", "engaging play" and "stunning graphics"
00:47 < ContraDuck> most people who play a roguelike will play it a couple of times and then forget about it.
00:47 < thelaptop|work> heck, we don't even have a storyline
00:47 < thelaptop|work> it takes a certain kind of person to play a roguelike less than casually
00:48 < MaiZure> yup yup
00:48 < thelaptop|work> to borrow from wolf3d: set up a very easy mode to work with the copper badges
00:48 < thelaptop|work> aka "can i play, daddy?"
00:49 < MaiZure> How about just Training Badges
00:49 < MaiZure> rather than Copper
00:49 < thelaptop|work> sounds good
00:49 < MaiZure> I know - its all semantics
00:49 < thelaptop|work> i was just trying to follow the scheme
00:50 < MaiZure> At least veterans can have contests to see who can get all 19 in one run
00:50 < MaiZure> :P
00:51 < thelaptop|work> so here're some ideas: 3x ammo spawned, even fewer monsters, monsters get -1 penalty, get half damage from acid & lava, level 1's hp can't be picked up by monsters, score is quartered, small healing items heal 30HP instead of 10, armour shards repair 75% instead of 25%, powerups last three times as long, exp gained from monsters increased by 50-60%
00:51 < MaiZure> And no Cybie at the end
00:51 < thelaptop|work> okay, no cybie
00:51 < thelaptop|work> as usual, UC and mortuary does not spawn
00:52 < MaiZure> Otherwise, we'd have people spamming training to get their 100 cybie kills
00:52 < thelaptop|work> i think we can just give them one BoH as the final boss
00:52 < thelaptop|work> and restrict the spawned monsters
00:52 < thelaptop|work> kinda like in Doom 1
00:52 < MaiZure> Just like the first episode of Doom 1
00:52 < thelaptop|work> act 1
00:52 < thelaptop|work> yep!
00:53 < MaiZure> So do me a favor, laptop
00:53 < MaiZure> Post this in the thread :P
00:53 < thelaptop|work> rofl
00:53 < thelaptop|work> soooo long...
00:53 < thelaptop|work> i'll put it in
00:54  * MaiZure gives two thumbs up

[MaiZure]

Thanks thelaptop,

The whole point here (as Malek and Gargulec sort of pointed out), is that most players probably can't win on HNTR. My own side story for that is when DoomRL was passed around my undergrad CS department back in 05/06, of about 50 people, 40 of them played for a week and couldnt manage ITYTD before quitting. About 5-10 beat Cybie and gave up after trying HNTR. I'm the only one who eventually got on the Forum. When I sent a few buddies the 0.9.9, they said it look great...except 4 of the 5 badge pages are pretty much irrelevent for them. Hence the point of trying to find a way to include those who simply can't figure out the tactics but still want to have fun with the Doom nostalgia!

The Training Badge idea is an extention of the lower badges and maybe it doesn't really a need difficulty level - Maybe it should just apply to ITYTD. Although Im not against limiting traits and whatnot, I really think that a partial win on ITYTD to 'unlock' all the stuff we're used to is not really much of a grind for anyone who has posted here in this thread. And I do believe it would be quite fun for those unfortunate 'new' players who spend all their time trying to get through that first difficulty level without success...I know you're out there, even if you aren't on the forum here! Besides...last time I checked, you have to YAAM ITYTD to even get enough levels to do a Master Trait! :P

Props to ZZ - I like that limiting level idea...

[Frankosity]

Roguelikes are hard. WHO KNEW

[ParaSait]

Roguelikes are hard. WHO KNEW

Yea, you got a good point there. And compared to other RL's difficulties, DoomRL is a pussy already.
And cmon people, the current version is 0.9.9, that means "alllllmost finished", so I don't see why you would disbalance the whole brick tower now with these features?

[Thomas]

I say ITYTD is already easy enough as well...

About that 50 man anecdote, the kind of person that plays a game for a week then quits because the game never said "You're great buddy, you sure bested me!" isn't the kind of person that plays roguelikes. It took me a good year to get my first H,NTR victory (on the versions that only had one difficulty, of course), and of the 3 or so roguelikes I play regularly, this is the only one I've beaten at all.

I guess I'm trying to say if they don't have fun losing to DoomRL, why would they have fun beating it?

[Fanta Hege]

At this rate I'd just say we should just make a tutorial vid or something and jam it in the download for new players to watch. =/

[thelaptop]

At this rate I'd just say we should just make a tutorial vid or something and jam it in the download for new players to watch. =/

Oooo!  In-built demo replay a-la the stuff in Doom!

[yns88]

How about VR training, like in Metal Gear Solid?

You put the player in hand-created small scenarios, and task him with objectives (kill all monsters, reach the exit, survive X turns, etc) while also giving tips on tactics. It can range from basic advice for new players to super-hard mini challenges for advanced players.

[thelaptop]

How about VR training, like in Metal Gear Solid?

I like this -- it ties in nicely with the framework I put up with MaiZure from our little IRC chat.

[Frankosity]

Yeah maybe we can also institute some kind of 'save' system so if they die they can start again from the last point they saved at! And what's with this 'randomised levels' stuff, anyway? That just makes things too complicated for the player!

[Madtrixr]

You know, I'm going to get sick of saying this, but why don't we hold off on this until DoomRL2?

[ZZ]

The discussion can be flowing until the compromiss point is reached, no matter of time.
And actualy it's good now, because it could be in 0.9.9.1, which is 100$ closer.

Maybe change the behaviour of monsters, so if you're green and you're carying a big&loaded gun they run away, and Cybie don't chase you, the Rookie must be carying smth. bigger to scare those and so on.

[Frankosity]

You know, I'm going to get sick of saying this, but why don't we hold off on this until DoomRL2?

Because there's not even a development schedule for the final version of DoomRL 1? It's like saying you can't count out 3DRealms until Duke Nukem Forever 2 bombs.

[Madtrixr]

...After reading this more carefully, I have decided that, while I'm glad MaiZure is stirring the pot, trying to find a way to get the newbs to play more, I do not like this idea. I cannot propose any alternatives, because I think the system we have now is fine.

...Also, I used "I" too much. Ah well.

[Jarkko]

No grinding elements into DoomRL please. If you want to grind go play WoW or another MMORPG. If you want to grind in a roguelike play ADOM.

The only unlockable things should be difficulty settings and challenges. Things that make the game harder. Not things that make the game easier like uniques, and absolutely not (master) traits. Forcing the player to play suboptimal builds for the first 50 games, what fun.

Oh hey,  I just got an idea for an unlockable. A cheat/options menu where you can change player/monster hp, monster/item/powerup spawn rate and stuff like that. This would be an actually nice reward for playing but wouldn't affect normal gameplay.