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Author Topic: Rogue Like Doom or Doom Like Rogue?  (Read 7612 times)

STL

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Rogue Like Doom or Doom Like Rogue?
« on: July 04, 2006, 06:36 »

First of all, congratulations... nice game...
Now my ideas,

Currently, I'd classify the game as rogue with doom music, doom monsters, doom-like items and doom-like sotry line.

I'd actualy prefer to have more Doom experience from the game. therefore I provide my feature requests accordingly:

1- The first reason "Doom is Doom" is the ambience. There are things going on around, like monsters teleporting, lights going out, walls coming down to reveal monsters behind... all of these happen when the player does something, step on some location, pick up something, open a door, kill a monster etc. appliation of these, although being easy to implement can improve the gameplay experience a lot. Here is a list of items related:
- Create monsters at certain locations when user gets to some location. (this should be fairly easy to implement)
- Open (or destroy if you will) certain walls (revealing some monsters) when user steps on some location (this is even easier, since you have the wall removal code available)
- Light sources.. that may go out, or maybe destroyed. (ok this may not be easy)
- Keys/locked doors, which may trigger events... (ok this, I admit, may be hard)
All of these add to the complexity of dungeon generation, but IMO it's still manageable.

2- The second reason "Doom is Doom" is that it's scary. Although doom 1/2 provides this by surprise, doom 3 is quite successful by it's graphic quality, and other traits. Since it's not possible to do much graphics, and element of surprise is covered in the previous item, I believe only the ancient scare tactics remain: unknown. In DoomRL monsters have a really low vision. Something that you do not see firing at you is scary. This is probably just changing some constants in the code. Also if the monsters did not see (or hear maybe) me, they do not need to be activated, they do not need to wander into acid or lava and kill themselves. Finally for this item, I'd like to see "Spectre"s running around :). They can be indicated by dark grey background... which on most screens is not distinguishable unless you pay attention.

3- Doom is action.. I think, it's not fair for player to choose between firing/reloading or moving... I'd implement that as: in each turn, either shoot/reload or walk. If you walked, you can also shoot/reload (thus ed your turn), but if you did shoot, your turn is over. If you walked, and try to walk again, your turn is over, monsters move, and after them, you'll walk in the direction you preferred. I believe it is more complicated than just taking turns, but I don't think it's not implementable. The creatures however, should just make a decision to either move or shoot (as in doom).

4- Rockets, fireballs, plasma rounds, lightning balls... these are not instant hit weapons. Fireballs and lightning balls are already quite messy, since they are area effective and can destroy walls. I'd implement projectile logic, where you can actually, and willingly dodge projectiles. You might say then what is the point if you can dodge them, and the answer lies in the doom 1/2... What they lack in power, they make up in numbers. How many of you consider one imp as a threat when you have a shotgun with 50 rounds and full health/armor? How many of you consider 40 imps as a threat in same condition? See my point?

5-Missions can be nice.. Like in Doom 3, to do this, do this first.. and this can be implemented in multiple levels.
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Anticheese

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Rogue Like Doom or Doom Like Rogue?
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2006, 09:44 »

First off, Nice post and welcome to the forums!

1 - Dungeon complexity would be nice, But when you are restricted to something like 60x40 you cant really do much. Something I would really love to see in DoomRL is levels the size of your average T-O-M-E level, But at the moment that wont happen. But if that could happen then trigger events would be possible.

2 - Something you dont see may be scary, But in a Roguelike its just a pain in the ass :-$, Kornel has however written an article or two on horror in Roguelike games (www.roguelikedevelopment.org) so it would be nice to see some of that in effect.

3 - Two actions a turn? I like it! Part of me says "Moving twice in one turn is not Roguelikeish!" The second part says "But what about potions of speed and the likes?" and the other part says "The original Dooms let you do this!" so two thumbs up!

4 - THANK YOU! It is a constant source of irritation to me that the only way to dodge fireballs is to move up and down at an angle to the enemy but in doing so you forfeit your turn!

5 - I had an oppertunity to try DoomRPG while at a clay shoot a few weeks ago, It has little strongholds in it that have NPC's, Computers and other such plot advancing objects, If my "Large Levels" solution could go through this would be a really great thing!

Thanks for the massive post!
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Magekind

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Rogue Like Doom or Doom Like Rogue?
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2006, 12:44 »

Sorry - fear/horror? Once, playing Doom 3, I did jump, as a body twitched. Actually slid a ways, but regardless - I would have to say no. Yes, there's a... this evil, demonic overtone that you don't see as well in the DoomRL, but... that's because it's simplified. But as for fear, if Doom 3 were the horror game some said it was, I would never have played past the first level. I don't play for horror, it's the thrill, the action. Just me, but....
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Aerton

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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2006, 13:13 »

1 - That's nice, but it doesn't mix well with random levels. Would be great if some of this could be incorporated into a level generator.

2 - Low monster vision is going be fixed in a next version (current cateye abuse is not intended). Perhaps, AI will be improved too. Some rooms that reduce vision are nice and were suggested before. Spectres as barely visible symbols were discussed here a lot. General consunsus was that it suck.

3 - It will make things overcomplicated without real addition to gameplay. Friring on a move is currently modeled by dodge system.

4 - There is a dodge system that is intended to model these things. If you mean that projectiles should travel for several turns, it will make them useless, as it will be way too easy to simply step aside in most situations.

5 - There are some ASCII map of doom levels posted on this forum. It would be great if someday they will find a way into the game. It would also be a good place to use suggestions from 1.

btw, Kornel (as well as some other people here) consider Doom3 undoomish, so only Doom and Doom2 should be considered as inspirational sources.
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STL

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Rogue Like Doom or Doom Like Rogue?
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2006, 02:43 »

1 - That's nice, but it doesn't mix well with random levels. Would be great if some of this could be incorporated into a level generator.

2 - Low monster vision is going be fixed in a next version (current cateye abuse is not intended). Perhaps, AI will be improved too. Some rooms that reduce vision are nice and were suggested before. Spectres as barely visible symbols were discussed here a lot. General consunsus was that it suck.

3 - It will make things overcomplicated without real addition to gameplay. Friring on a move is currently modeled by dodge system.

4 - There is a dodge system that is intended to model these things. If you mean that projectiles should travel for several turns, it will make them useless, as it will be way too easy to simply step aside in most situations.


Reply:

1- Some basic traps might be a "tile" in the generated map. The map generator is capable of creating rooms, this is in practice no different.

3- I tend to disagree. Players does not even need to notice this. The dodge system does not model firing while moving. Dodge system models, moving so you are not an easy target. There is no shooting in it. If you are facing 3 imps (normally, you should take them one by one, but random start does not help much) you can move all you wish to "dodge" their fireballs, but you'll eventually die, since, you have no way of shooting them while you are moving. Only option you have is to stand and shoot, in which case, you'll "catch" (allmost) every fireball thrown at you. ( I recently started a map in the middle of 5 cacodemons, and get toasted.) (this item should be implemented in conjuction with 4)

4- As far as I observed, current dodge system is not a good model to fit into pace of Doom. It looks like, the player can dodge bullets and projectiles alike. Dodge system can stay, but projectiles not being instant hit is important, and really adds more depth to the game. (Having a B o H fire at you and you move aside to watch acid(?)ball to strike down the imp). Plus, it does not make the game easier, if number of enemies are increased. Considering the projectiles have area effect, they are still pretty dangerous especially if there are many projectiles. Also take into account that the monsters can also dodge your projectiles. I'd suggest the projectiles to have the following speeds:
Imp fireball: 3 turns/move
BoH, HN acidball: 3 turns/move
Cacodemon lightningball: 3 turns/move
Rocket : 3 turns/ move
Plasma gun (yours and A's) : 2 turns/move
BFG : 6 turns/move
(did I miss any?)

And A slight chance of shooting the projectile can be added, which may only work for instant hit weapons. One final thing, If the projectiles are projectiles (hmm)  then there should be no chance to hit attached to them, if it visits your (or their) square it hits... no chance to miss (but it may be possible to dodge, if idea 3 is not there)...


Another list of quick adds:
6- Please add Mancubus... >:)

7- This is hard, but how about having an idea of front (so you do not see far behind your back). this would allow monsters attacign from behind... doom style.. Yay...

8- Mentioned many times, but i have an addition to that: Backpack. Backpack is a nice idea, but I think inventory management is a great dimension of the game. I'd think of backpack as an item in the inventory that takes one slot. when activated, contents of te backpack (which should not be too many, 5 or 6 items at most) can be accessed, and taken out of the backpack, while your inventory items are also visible and can be put into the backpack. Here is the deal: these actions should take time, so backpack will not be an extra inventory space, but a way to carry more "offline" items with you.

9- A few usability issues:

- I'd like to have an easy way to switch the item laying on the ground with an item in the inventory, or even something you are wearing. I request this because I think everyone is walking aroung with their inventoies full, an switching items is a pain. (Yey, I found a better armor, drop an item, get the armor, wear the armor, drop old armor, get the first item back). Note: I'm not suggesting the process should take less time (although it may), I'm just suggesting to have it easily accessible.

- I believe quick weapon switching keys should equip the weapon of the type that has most ammunition inside. I sometimes use switch rather than reload strategy... Lets say I have two shotguns, I fire one, I switch to pistol, when I switch back to shotgun I sould get the full one, not the empty.. (Also I should be able to switch from a weapon to same weapon if the one I have in my hands has less ammunition than the one in my inventory.)

10- How about weapon modifications that you can carry, and apply to a weapon? And maybe more than one... Rapid fastload advanced bfg... hell yea.

11- How about "advanced phase device", where you can choose where to go (or do you have that already I never get past lvl 14 yet)?

12- this has been suggested before, and I back it: Monsters attacking monsters, it adds quite a deal of strategy to the game.

13- Secret doors? doors that look like walls.. They may just be opened or player migh need to perform another action (search) to find them.

14- The Wall and locked rooms. I believe these suck. There should be a way to get these open without explosives, since there is no guarantee, the player can have explosives (=rocket) at that time. Locked doos can have keys placed in the level. for The Wall, I'd add some barrels, which can be used to blow the wall, or to blow the B's o H.

15- Actually 14 gave me an idea, how about c-4 that you can carry around, and deploy (like thermie but much much much smaller blast , say somewhat like barrels?).

I think it's enough for now.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2006, 14:00 »

Duh, this will be a loong reply.

I generally agree with Aerton, so I'll just comment on the last post :).

As for the moving while shooting you CAN do that if carefully calculating. Take a fast weapon and speed traits and you can move and fire in the same time while the enemies fire. As for the slower-than-one-turn projectiles -- believe me - this is a BIG NO-NO. Firstly - it makes a ununderstandable mess on the screen -- in a ASCII turnbased game you have no way to indicate the direction of the projectiles. I've seen some slower-than-turn ASCII roguelike tech demos and they all looked ugly. The second problem is that it would make single enemies far to weak. Imagine fighting the Cyberdemon in such a game. Third - it woould drastically reduce the pace of the game. You would spend a lot more time trying to outguess those missiles and less time just firing and charging madly.

As for missions -- I think I will upgrade the plot a little ;-].

Quoting: STL
6- Please add Mancubus... >:)

Actually the biggest pain in that is doing the ASCII art ^_^

Quoting: STL
7- This is hard, but how about having an idea of front (so you do not see far behind your back). this would allow monsters attacign from behind... doom style.. Yay...

I plan adding facing to another game (if I ever pull it off). But believe me, that is not a trivial thing and would need a helluva lot rebalancing.

Quoting: STL
8- Mentioned many times, but i have an addition to that: Backpack. Backpack is a nice idea, but I think inventory management is a great dimension of the game.

Your idea of the backpack would greatly increase the interface complexity (and code complexity too ^_^). I think a far easier and nicer solution is for the backpack to increase the amount of ammo that you can hold in one slot. Which is much true to Doom BTW :>

Quoting: STL
- I'd like to have an easy way to switch the item laying on the ground with an item in the inventory, or even something you are wearing.

How do you imagine that "interface-wise"?

Quoting: STL
- I believe quick weapon switching keys should equip the weapon of the type that has most ammunition inside. I sometimes use switch rather than reload strategy... Lets say I have two shotguns, I fire one, I switch to pistol, when I switch back to shotgun I sould get the full one, not the empty..

True. I'll look into that.

Quoting: STL
10- How about weapon modifications that you can carry, and apply to a weapon? And maybe more than one... Rapid fastload advanced bfg... hell yea.

Yeah, I had that idea -- DeusEx style :P --  we'll see :)

Quoting: STL
How about "advanced phase device", where you can choose where to go (or do you have that already I never get past lvl 14 yet)?

LoL, that would make two places WAY to easy :>

Quoting: STL
this has been suggested before, and I back it: Monsters attacking monsters, it adds quite a deal of strategy to the game.

True, but I need to completely rewrite the AI system for that to work nice :/

Quoting: STL
13- Secret doors? doors that look like walls.. They may just be opened or player migh need to perform another action (search) to find them.

That would only add a tedious and boring action to the game. Also you can't  hide anything considering that the levels are fixed size, so why the hell bother with hidden doors? :)

Quoting: STL
14- The Wall and locked rooms. I believe these suck. There should be a way to get these open without explosives, since there is no guarantee, the player can have explosives (=rocket) at that time. Locked doos can have keys placed in the level.

That's the whole point -- sometimes you can, sometimes you can't :). The main secret of the game also depends on ridiculous luck :D.

Quoting: STL
Actually 14 gave me an idea, how about c-4 that you can carry around, and deploy (like thermie but much much much smaller blast , say somewhat like barrels?).

I don't see any use for it except for blowing up walls in special levels.

Quoting: STL
I think it's enough for now.


Keep it coming, I need inspiration now :D

P.S. I fixed the "quote" button. I hope... :P
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Aerton

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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2006, 14:31 »

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
This is hard, but how about having an idea of front (so you do not see far behind your back). this would allow monsters attacign from behind... doom style.. Yay...I plan adding facing to another game (if I ever pull it off). But believe me, that is not a trivial thing and would need a helluva lot rebalancing.
If you add directons for a player, you should also add them to monsters. And I can't imagine how can it be displayed in ASCII.

Quoting: STL
- I believe quick weapon switching keys should equip the weapon of the type that has most ammunition inside. ... (Also I should be able to switch from a weapon to same weapon if the one I have in my hands has less ammunition than the one in my inventory.)
Agree. Also there is some things to be fixed, as being able to use 3 to select a double shortgun, when you don't have an ordinary one.

Quoting: STL
10- How about weapon modifications that you can carry, and apply to a weapon? And maybe more than one... Rapid fastload advanced bfg... hell yea.
I'm afraid it may devalue such items, as you will be guranteed to have a muliple-enhanced BFG in every game.

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
P.S. I fixed the "quote" button. I hope... :P
At last! :P
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2006, 14:42 »

Quoting: Aerton
If you add directons for a player, you should also add them to monsters. And I can't imagine how can it be displayed in ASCII.

If AlienBreedRL ever comes out you'll see what I mean ;-]
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2006, 05:34 »

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
Quoting: STL
- I'd like to have an easy way to switch the item laying on the ground with an item in the inventory, or even something you are wearing.
How do you imagine that "interface-wise"?

Let me explain. There needs to be another key, say "s" (for switch) for arguments sake. When I hit "s" I see the regular inventory window, except that the title says: "Replace <the thing on the ground> with...".

For items in use, when I hit "e", and regular view show up.. when I hit the corresponding key of armor/weapon/boot, I see "Choose Item" window. Items include compatible things in my inventory, "None", and the item on the ground if that's compatible. Only problem I can forsee is the space.. and that can be eliminated in many ways...

Quoting: Aerton

Quoting: STL
10- How about weapon modifications that you can carry, and apply to a weapon? And maybe more than one... Rapid fastload advanced bfg... hell yea.
I'm afraid it may devalue such items, as you will be guranteed to have a muliple-enhanced BFG in every game.

Actually, it adds a little twist. Since real weapon powers are not obvious to figure out. Plus, they do not have to be applicable to every weapon. Or they can be like "Pistol Fastload Upgrade" that are applicable to a specific weapon. Where low end weapon upgrades are common, high end weapon upgrades can be really scarce. If upgrades are specific to weapon, then it allow to have "Pistol Fastload Upgrade MKII"... the possibilities are endless.
 
Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz

Quoting: STL
How about "advanced phase device", where you can choose where to go (or do you have that already I never get past lvl 14 yet)?
LoL, that would make two places WAY to easy :>

Quoting: STL
14- The Wall and locked rooms. I believe these suck. There should be a way to get these open without explosives, since there is no guarantee, the player can have explosives (=rocket) at that time. Locked doos can have keys placed in the level.
That's the whole point -- sometimes you can, sometimes you can't :). The main secret of the game also depends on ridiculous luck :D.


Well said, that't the point. Your being successful on the game does depend on ridiculous luck more than knowledge and skill (to think, to calculate ahead). I admit roguelikes really demand luck, but I think this is excessive. From my experience with game desing, if a game requires quite a deal of luck, then people do not prefer to play it against computer.

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz

Quoting: STL
Actually 14 gave me an idea, how about c-4 that you can carry around, and deploy (like thermie but much much much smaller blast , say somewhat like barrels?).
I don't see any use for it except for blowing up walls in special levels.

Traps. Well placed time traps. (you can actually kill monsters with this while you are too busy dodging plasma gun shots from A's...)

For move&shoot thing: No matter how much you calculate, you cannot do this. Closest you can do is move around until the enemy is in "wait"  turn, and shoot once, and move again. I believe this is called dancing... also it depends on the speed of the monster and your walking&shooting speed. In doom 1/2 you can kill anything in one-on-one except former humans and archvile if you are in an open space and have only pistol with unlimited ammunition even if you start with 1 health. For slower projectiles, I can see how this messes up with the text UI. For game being easy, let me ask you a question: How many times in total, did you see any monster alone (save bosses) in an open space that you can easily dodge around, please take into account all episodes of doom 1 and 2. For Cyberdemon, if you'd think that would be too easy, i'd modify his behavior so that, he fires 3 missiles at a time in a spread fashion.

Here is a middle ground. Instead of having slow projectiles and shoot&move action, you can implement "Getting Ready to fire" for (at least most of the) monsters. Like:
I see an imp, in a corridor...
..........i.........
Then it readies to fire...
..........i.........
If I notice that, I may choose to forfeit my firing to dodge the projectile.
the imp fires to the location where I was at the point of "ready to fire". It can also choose to fire a location I can dodge, without knowledge of my dodge movement (Improved AI.. there you go).
If you didn't notice the i is bold when it's getting ready to fire.

Two more ideas:

1- Actually, I'd say the IU is messed up too much even with instant hit projectiles. The thing is, I see nothing for unexplored, I see dots for explored and not currently visible spaces and dots (again!) for currently in sight spaces. Gray and white are not really distinguishable on most computers, or to most eyes. I'd do that as:
Complete gray (background color) for not explored, Dark gray background and maybe gray dots for explored and not visible (plus as usual, everything is grayed out), and black background with no dots  for currently in sight. This would make things crystal clear.

2- Named monsters and items (maybe dropped by named monsters). It sounds like diablo more than doom, but yet, it can be interesting. E.g. a gray h on yellow background, named "Sarge", and has twice (triple?) the stats of normal gray h, and drops "Mother Gun", which is a special unique pistol (either too powerful (faster-load, 10 clip size and 3d5 dmg) or something that is more balanced (slower reload, 12 clipsize, 3d3 dmg))...

3- (ok I may not know how to count) Grenades...(instead of c-4) Difference from rockets is: a) they might be an inventory item as opposed to reguar equippable weapon, b) they do not explode on contact unless they land on lava or acid, c) they can go as far as your visible range
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2006, 13:40 »

Quoting: STL
For items in use, when I hit "e", and regular view show up.. when I hit the corresponding key of armor/weapon/boot, I see "Choose Item" window. Items include compatible things in my inventory, "None", and the item on the ground if that's compatible. Only problem I can forsee is the space.. and that can be eliminated in many ways...

Unfortunately that would clutter up the inventory space. I have an idea of an "intelligent pickup" but that is low priority.

Quoting: STL
I admit roguelikes really demand luck, but I think this is excessive. From my experience with game desing, if a game requires quite a deal of luck, then people do not prefer to play it against computer.

I play around with the idea of making persistent levels (with the possibility of going back) -- that would make it a lot less random.

Quoting: STL
In doom 1/2 you can kill anything in one-on-one except former humans and archvile if you are in an open space and have only pistol with unlimited ammunition even if you start with 1 health.

Cybie and Spider included? :-P

Quoting: STL
Here is a middle ground. Instead of having slow projectiles and shoot&move action, you can implement "Getting Ready to fire" for (at least most of the) monsters.

This is a lot more "implementable". And I may consider it. Unfortuately with the current speed system it's impossible to say wether the enemy WILL manage to make a shot on the next turn. BTW, there's no Bold in the ASCII standard :/.

Quoting: STL
Gray and white are not really distinguishable on most computers, or to most eyes. I'd do that as:
Complete gray (background color) for not explored, Dark gray background and maybe gray dots for explored and not visible (plus as usual, everything is grayed out), and black background with no dots for currently in sight.

The problem lies in standard WinXP console color set. I might use a hack for that in the future. The solution you presented would look ugly IMHO, but maybe I'll add it as an option for those less artisticaly inclined ;-].

Quoting: STL
2- Named monsters and items (maybe dropped by named monsters). It sounds like diablo more than doom, but yet, it can be interesting. E.g. a gray h on yellow background, named "Sarge", and has twice (triple?) the stats of normal gray h, and drops "Mother Gun", which is a special unique pistol (either too powerful (faster-load, 10 clip size and 3d5 dmg) or something that is more balanced (slower reload, 12 clipsize, 3d3 dmg))...

This pushes DoomRL into the RPG side of things. I would want to do that, but I'm afraid it might ruin the game :-/

Quoting: STL
3- (ok I may not know how to count) Grenades...(instead of c-4) Difference from rockets is: a) they might be an inventory item as opposed to reguar equippable weapon, b) they do not explode on contact unless they land on lava or acid, c) they can go as far as your visible range

Grenades were discussed, and a general consensus has been made, that they are undoomish. I agree with that opinion.
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« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2006, 21:02 »

Well a lot has been going on while i was slacking off in the sun i see. Let me try to give some feedback on these ideas:

The whole slow projectiles or even getting ready to fire idea:
I'm not a fan of this at all. Right now the game is too easy without this. Adding more monsters to counter the difficulty decrease is useless, as i tend to find it easier when i have to fight a lot of enemies, it just takes longer.

I disagree that the current dodge system is not Doomlike, you can zig-zag to increase the chance you'll dodge projectiles, just like you would strafe in Doom itself. That you can dodge bullets as well is a bit un-Doomlike, but i don't think many people will make it past the surface when bullets always hit, so i beleive for a RL version of Doom this is the best solution.


Quoting: STL
Let me explain. There needs to be another key, say "s" (for switch) for arguments sake. When I hit "s" I see the regular inventory window, except that the title says: "Replace <the thing on the ground> with...".

Not a bad idea, but as Kornel said, low priority. With a bit of practice you can drop and pickup very fast anyway.

Quoting: STL
Well said, that't the point. Your being successful on the game does depend on ridiculous luck more than knowledge and skill (to think, to calculate ahead). I admit roguelikes really demand luck, but I think this is excessive. From my experience with game desing, if a game requires quite a deal of luck, then people do not prefer to play it against computer.


Well, I totally disagree with this. Sure, a lot of luck is involved in this game, but with practice and skill you can minimize the effect that luck has on the game. Right now, i am able to finish 9/10 games i start, because i think and plan ahead. I don't depend on getting lucky enough to find more health packs, i do everything i can to preserve the ones i allready have. I will never assume that i can find more plasma cells later on in the game, I hoard everything i can find.
Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
I play around with the idea of making persistent levels (with the possibility of going back) -- that would make it a lot less random.

Please don't do this, unless you make items a lot more scarce. One of the best parts of the game is that you have to choose what to take with you to the next level and what to leave behind.

Most of your other suggestions seem good, except for the grenades and the backpack which were extensively discussed elsewhere. I especially would like traps in the game as well, instead of just the levers (which you can always choose not to pull).

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Rogue Like Doom or Doom Like Rogue?
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2006, 05:42 »

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
Unfortunately that would clutter up the inventory space.

Uhh.. How so?

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
I play around with the idea of making persistent levels (with the possibility of going back) -- that would make it a lot less random.

Agreed.

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
Cybie and Spider included? :-P

Cybie (?) yes, Spider no (at least not everytime). Spider has instant hit chaingun.  I don't remember ever dying against Cybie (at least in it's level)...

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
Unfortuately with the current speed system it's impossible to say wether the enemy WILL manage to make a shot on the next turn. BTW, there's no Bold in the ASCII standard :/.

It doesn't have to guess when the enemy will mange to make a shot. It just needs to split action into two. If it takes 10 turns for an imp to fire, it can be divided into 2 actions, 9 turn ready to fire, and 1 turn fire. this would make it so that you almost always do see it getting ready to fire. If it takes 5 turns to get ready and 5 to fire, then you'll see it getting ready half of the time etc. Only trick in implementation is that the getting ready to fire must be followed by fire. There is no bold in ASCII "Standards" but If I remember correctly there was a way of putting bold characters on the console. I'm not sure though, maybe I'm confusing with something else. However, it does not have to be bold, but I think it should be subtle.

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
... maybe I'll add it as an option for those less artisticaly inclined

Please do :).

Quoting: Turgor
Right now the game is too easy without this. Adding more monsters to counter the difficulty decrease is useless, as i tend to find it easier when i have to fight a lot of enemies, it just takes longer.

How do you know, did you play without "this" ? :) More monsters are not harder, only if you can manage to take them one by one. When the mysterious improved AI comes, you should (hopefully) not be able to take monsters one by one, since it's really "undoomish", as you guys put it.

Quoting: Turgor
I disagree that the current dodge system is not Doomlike, you can zig-zag to increase the chance you'll dodge projectiles, just like you would strafe in Doom itself. That you can dodge bullets as well is a bit un-Doomlike, but i don't think many people will make it past the surface when bullets always hit, so i beleive for a RL version of Doom this is the best solution.

3 key points here:
- You can zig-zag: so you are constantly dodging (dancing), not firing... As I said before. I can't see how anyone can think this is "doomish". In Doom I/II/III do you walk around to dodge projectiles, fire only when you are standing still?
- Increase the chance: Here is that hidden magic number controlling your life again. You have minimal control over it, and you think this is "doomish"? Can't you dodge a fireball thrown at you at you from the other side of the room in Doom (I/II/III/ + all expansions)?
- I don't think many people will make it past the surface when bullets always hit: Do you really try to dodge (dance around) bullets in first level? Plus I don't have any take on bullets, they are just fine as they are. If you really compare that with doom 1/2 you'd probably get very close results in terms of dodgeability.

Quoting: Turgor
Well, I totally disagree with this. Sure, a lot of luck is involved in this game, but with practice and skill you can minimize the effect that luck has on the game. Right now, i am able to finish 9/10 games i start, because i think and plan ahead. I don't depend on getting lucky enough to find more health packs, i do everything i can to preserve the ones i allready have. I will never assume that i can find more plasma cells later on in the game, I hoard everything i can find.

Without cheating,
How many times you can do "the wall"?
How many time can you get to super duper secret that probably everyone knows by now?
What is the chance that you'll start on a level with lots of barrels around, and 3  former sergeants looking into your eyes?
I'm not saying it's entirely based on luck, but it's much more than a "usual".

Quoting: Turgor
Please don't do this, unless you make items a lot more scarce. One of the best parts of the game is that you have to choose what to take with you to the next level and what to leave behind.

I agree that inventory management is important. So I'd suggest, instead of going back, there can be up levels, which is far easier to implement. Here is how it works:
You get into a randomly generated level (depth n), the level has 1 down ladder to level (depth n+1), may have one special ladder which goes to a special level, and may have a ladder that goes up to another random level (depth n-1). Since if these ladders are frequent they would really boost up the expected experience level of the players, I'd suggest (a combination of) these to prevent experience boost:
- Up ladder can be destroyed.
- Up ladder appears really scarce (defeating the purpose).
- Players forfeit x% experience (but no leveling down) by going up.
- Up ladders are not spawned, instead, player may choose to go one level up by forfeiting x% experience (but not leveling down).
- Experience gained by each monster is adjusted with your level compared to theirs.
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