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Author Topic: So I used three phases and couldn't get into the middle vault of the Vaults..  (Read 12194 times)

Tavana

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I have to agree that while clearing the Vaults should be a difficult Achievement (tm) notwithstanding, forcing the player to phase into one of them is a rather inelegant way of doing it. You have to spoil yourself to figure it out; it vaguely reminds me of the rogue quest in NetHack. Much better to have to just rocket your way in, or walk through lava to find a hidden door, or something. Not like it'll make it any easier.

My 2c.

Quick reminder: This is DoomRL, not ADOM, not Nethack. There are only so many items. Finding the 1 correct item from 40 or so items isn't too hard, in comparison to 1 item out of several hundred items. This is nothing like giving an amulet of lifesaving to a dying man. This is "Brute force doesn't work? Holy crap! I have to think!"

Also: Hidden things in games are usually what make people play them longer. The "Easter Eggs" are the main reason that some people play.
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BDR

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The troublesome thing about this particular gimmick is that IMO there's no way someone worth their salt as a player is going to carry five or more slots of phase devices and actually use all five of them in an effort to enter the center vault without knowing that is the only way to do it. Generally speaking, if you blow more than three non-ammo stacks in a single ordinary level it's a sign you've screwed up and are likely to pay the price for it. No other level in the game requires this kind of specialized inventory preparation in order to be completed. That "it's not NetHack" comment goes both ways; when was the last time you *needed* a chaingun to kill a Baron? :)
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leonresevil2

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Agreed. The Vaults are not really an Easter Egg, nor will the fact that I cannot enter the vaults make me want to play it more and more. I think most players will try what they can, become frustrated, and either not bother entering the vaults when aiming for 100% kills, or look through the wiki and forums if they want the badges/loot. There are other places where the player has to think and prepare largely ahead of time (Full win, DS, master traits), but none that I know of require so many items, so much luck, and so much risk. In the even that you actually make it into the center, you'll have an awfully fun time telling the denizens that they must leave... in bodybags. The risk/luck/preparation involved in entering the center vault does not outweigh the reward, IMO (few items, rarely exotic or unique in center).

So, we could make it easier to enter the center (walk through lava or something), or make the Vaults more rewarding, more worth the 5 PDs likely needed, and akin to the name; "Vaults" make it sound like awesome treasures. Guaranteed Unique maybe?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 00:46 by leonresevil2 »
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Fanta Hege

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Agreed. The Vaults are not really an Easter Egg, nor will the fact that I cannot enter the vaults make me want to play it more and more. I think most players will try what they can, become frustrated, and either not bother entering the vaults when aiming for 100% kills, or look through the wiki and forums if they want the badges/loot. There are other places where the player has to think and prepare largely ahead of time (Full win, DS, master traits), but none that I know of require so many items, so much luck, and so much risk. In the even that you actually make it into the center, you'll have an awfully fun time telling the denizens that they must leave... in bodybags. The risk/luck/preparation involved in entering the center vault does not outweigh the reward, IMO (few items, rarely exotic or unique in center).

So, we could make it easier to enter the center (walk through lava or something), or make the Vaults more rewarding, more worth the 5 PDs likely needed, and akin to the name; "Vaults" make it sound like awesome treasures. Guaranteed Unique maybe?

Thats excatly how I feel.
Each time I ever happen to carry those 5 PD's and try the center vault, I'll each time make sure I'm either berserk or invulnerable when I start phasing. The risk of the revenant&vile pack that greets you on enter is just... Too damn risky versus the reward. I haven't personaly yet cleared the vaults as I've each time died or ran out of phases when trying to center vault. Hell I even once got there and cleared it..! Only to get stuck.


Though one other thing that could probably help is actually adding phase devices themselves inside the vaults. And generally better reward.
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ChaoticJosh

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With the 'sealing it with lava' idea, you'd need an envirosuit pack or two, which is far easier to obtain than the phase devices. Also, for an idea of mine, how about make it similar to the wall, with a single large room in the center surrounded by many layers of destructable walls, and then you just need a bunch of missiles to get in.
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leonresevil2

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I like the idea of adding in phase devices, maybe have a few appear on the outer vaults. Lava and layered walls would work, but the level area in the vault is somewhat limited as it is, so the level would possibly need a large redesign to add a lava or walled passage. The easiest change would be to provide a few phase devices in the vaults; the challenge of entering the center still remains, but then players would have more chance to be able to successfully enter. Also, this would make the Vaults completable even on AoI!
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Game Hunter

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Maybe you should turn the "creative" method of entering the middle vault into a Simon's Quest of standing in some random dead-end for like, 300 turns until a blue tornado whisks you away to the middle.

I agree in adding phase devices to the level.  I'd go with one in each of the side vaults: forces you to actually do some work and has a chance of some enemy using them instead (I know at least Barons will use them, so ITYTD/HNTR will at least suffer in this respect).  As per the comment on badges, why not change them to reflect the higher chance of successfully completing them?  Getting the Bronze for simply entering is ridiculous as it is (compare to the Mortuary, where a player who knows not what they're doing will in all likelihood get killed).  I'd reorder them as follows:
- Scavenger Bronze: Scavenge the Vaults (ie, get into and kill what's in the side vaults)
- Scavenger Silver: Complete the Vaults (same as Bronze but also the middle)
- Scavenger Gold: Complete the Vaults on UV (same as Silver but Arch-vile/Revenant combo is freaking HARD, even with the BFG)

The jump between "clearing it" and "clearing it on N!" is pretty huge unless you're willing to spend large quantities rockets on the side vaults, potentially destroying all those cells and rockets you need to finish the game.

I've only entered the center vault once, and for what?  An Anti-Freak Jackal.  Sure, it's a great pistol, but it's the kind of I thing I would want 1.) On a AoMr run and 2.) Much earlier, ideally before the Wall.
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raekuul

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Look, the vaults has always been a luck-based mission. The *only* problems I have with the vaults are the Silver and Gold badges, but that's because I'm a bit of a wuss when it comes to relying on the RNG.

Although I agree that there needs to be some guaranteed way to escape the center vault... make teleporter tiles undestroyable by anything short of a nuke, and then put a teleporter to the far right side of the stage (that is, the teleporter lets out on the opposite side from the exit stairs).

Having said that, perhaps having the teleportile let out next to the stairs could offset the reliance on luck via AMBUSH!
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DBNinja

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It might have been just luck, but when I used a phase device in the lava in the right vault, I ended up in the center vault.
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Polymeron

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I've figured out the phase device trick on my own pretty easily... But I assumed it was a workaround. I'm actually pretty disappointed to find out there's no cleverer way in :-/
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Angles of death

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It's all luck based man...i once had 1 phase device and it got me to the treasure room of the wall and i blasted my way out with the advanced rocket launcher.
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