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Author Topic: Why does the corner trick work?  (Read 5427 times)

Tavana

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Re: Why does the corner trick work?
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2010, 04:46 »

HMP Arena will kill you a few times without using it, yes.

UV Arena will kill you a few more times without using it.

"Suck it up and survive." =P

That being said, I agree with Thomas. Currently, most players require the use of the corner trick to go far in the game. And the game isn't that fun to play if you can't win every once in awhile. To be honest, if the standard game was easier, you might even get a few more players, and the Challenges would feel more "fun", as they're making a game that isn't TOO hard to beat up to the level that it is at now. Then again, there are those that simply excel at the game. For them, we can always implement another difficulty level. ;)
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Frankosity

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Re: Why does the corner trick work?
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2010, 10:46 »

People don't play roguelikes because they're easy to beat. If people aren't playing DoomRL because it's 'too hard' (which it really isn't at ITYTD or HNTR) then they're not the target audience for the game.

It remains to be seen how much harder the game will be after the bug is fixed. Reminder that it was affecting the player as well, potentiall making the game easier in some aspects.
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yns88

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Re: Why does the corner trick work?
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2010, 20:19 »

To be honest, if the standard game was easier, you might even get a few more players, and the Challenges would feel more "fun", as they're making a game that isn't TOO hard to beat up to the level that it is at now.
The problem that I'm seeing is that since corner shooting is an exploit strategy that only experienced players understand, it's actually serving as part of the barrier to new players. Even after reading a guide about it, I still don't usually know when I'm playing whether a monster can see me or not (or whether my shotgun can hit them or not due to the shotgun corner bug).

There's nothing wrong IMO with the gameplay concept of using a corner as cover, I just think it should be legitimized and made easier to understand. That's what I like about DoomRL: most of the gameplay is simple and easy to understand, and yet it's probably the most skill-based roguelike I've played.
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Thomas

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Re: Why does the corner trick work?
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2010, 16:10 »

It remains to be seen how much harder the game will be after the bug is fixed. Reminder that it was affecting the player as well, potentiall making the game easier in some aspects.

Pfft, anyone actively looking for chances to do the corner trick (myself included) will use the trick 100 times for every one time it's used against them.

The problem that I'm seeing is that since corner shooting is an exploit strategy that only experienced players understand, it's actually serving as part of the barrier to new players. Even after reading a guide about it, I still don't usually know when I'm playing whether a monster can see me or not (or whether my shotgun can hit them or not due to the shotgun corner bug).

There's nothing wrong IMO with the gameplay concept of using a corner as cover, I just think it should be legitimized and made easier to understand. That's what I like about DoomRL: most of the gameplay is simple and easy to understand, and yet it's probably the most skill-based roguelike I've played.

This raises an interesting point. The corner trick is quite difficult to explain (one can only provide examples and hope the player gets the general idea from there) and the ability to recognise when corner tricks will work is an example of something that seperates an excellent player from a good player, just like being able to recognise when it's possible to sprint for a berserk pack on 10% HP or whether you'll need to heal first.

Replacing it with a flat bonus such as decreasing default fire-delay to 0.5s for the player, assuming that flat bonus is just as handy as the corner trick, will remove one of the skills that almost every excellent player uses and replace it with something everybody will use regardless of whether they know about it, shallowing the difficulty curve somewhat.
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yns88

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Re: Why does the corner trick work?
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2010, 21:34 »

Replacing it with a flat bonus such as decreasing default fire-delay to 0.5s for the player, assuming that flat bonus is just as handy as the corner trick, will remove one of the skills that almost every excellent player uses and replace it with something everybody will use regardless of whether they know about it, shallowing the difficulty curve somewhat.

This is not necessarily true. What I've been proposing still requires tactical positioning by having the doomguy stand behind barriers. A novice player would do it accidentally, an experienced player would start hugging corners, and an excellent player would take advantage of the map layout and monster AI to herd monsters into locations where he could gain a cover bonus against them.
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