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Author Topic: "Hot Fire", an alternate reload for the chaingun, and other ideas  (Read 6751 times)

ChaoticJosh

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So I was thinking, plasma guns have an alternate reload that destroys the weapon for a single powerful attack. Fairly useful if you have a group of enemies that you need dead RIGHT NOW... but I was wondering, how come the chaingun doesn't have anything similar?

My suggestion: give the chaingun an alternate reload which can only be used when it has a full clip. This will cause the chaingun to do a 'hot fire', where it will fire it's entire clip of 40 shells with a -2 or -3 to hit in say a couple seconds, and then the chaingun melts and becomes useless.

I don't know about anyone else, but I have yet to use the plasma gun alternate fire for anything, inspite of it's potential usefulness. It just doesn't seem practical to me, and the payoff isn't proportional to risk and sacrifice. Maybe that could be buffed as well, somehow?
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thelaptop

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Re: "Hot Fire", an alternate reload for the chaingun, and other ideas
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 23:04 »

Personally, I seldom use the plasma rifle's alternate fire due to the relative difficulty in obtaining the plasma rifle (you need to kill Commandos to find one).  Chainguns are more readily available, which may make the "hot fire" method imbalanced -- though in all seriousness with Ammochain, the chaingun uses no ammo at all, making the "hot fire" not too enticing (you fire faster and do more damage with each bullet when you use Ammochain).
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ChaoticJosh

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Re: "Hot Fire", an alternate reload for the chaingun, and other ideas
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 14:11 »

I think that's more of a balance problem with ammochain, which is bound to get fixed eventually methinks.

Also, since Chaingun's are more readily available, the alternate reload is actually an option instead of something you'd ordinarily never consider. Though, I don't think it would be imbalanced, you'd be using up an entire chaingun on an enemy or group of enemies, and most end game enemies can take quite a few hits before dying, then afterwards you'd be left needing to rummage through your inventory for a new one, which may be deadly if your enemy isn't finished off.
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ChaoticJosh

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Other ideas
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 19:11 »

Sorry for the doublepost, but I suppose I could use this thread for my other suggestions.

One, there's a nifty little mechanic that Mancubi have, which is being able to fire three perfectly accurate missiles in a straight line down a hallway. I've read that this is intentional, and I can't imagine why. It doesn't feel good to being doing alright one moment with 100% health, and then BLAM BLAM BLAM, you're dead from a single well-placed mancubi in a single turn. I don't understand why they hold back this accuracy, and then only choose to unleash it when it's inconvenient for the player.

It's sort of crazy if you consider that in this circumstance makes Mancubi the most damaging monsters in the game. I don't think they should be able to do that.
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thelaptop

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Re: "Hot Fire", an alternate reload for the chaingun, and other ideas
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 19:46 »

Mancubi do not fire three perfectly accurate missiles down a hallway.  The thing is that they fire only one accurate shot and two wildly inaccurate ones, but since it is a hallway, the degrees of freedom reduce to just one, and so all three hit you, since the other two can only fly forwards down the hallway.
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ChaoticJosh

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Re: "Hot Fire", an alternate reload for the chaingun, and other ideas
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2010, 20:12 »

Mancubi do not fire three perfectly accurate missiles down a hallway.  The thing is that they fire only one accurate shot and two wildly inaccurate ones, but since it is a hallway, the degrees of freedom reduce to just one, and so all three hit you, since the other two can only fly forwards down the hallway.

And this is perfectly reasonable?
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leonresevil2

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Re: "Hot Fire", an alternate reload for the chaingun, and other ideas
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 21:27 »

Slight tweak on the idea: have alternate Reload jam the revolution on the chaingun, takes 1-2 game seconds to activate (firing before it activates counts as a regular shot, and undoes the jam), decreases accuracy by 2 for a 10-bullet burst in the regular fire time. After the burst, the rev drops, takes maybe 1 game second before you can fire normally again. Usefulness?: knowing that there is a powerful enemy or group of enemies hiding around a corner, you can jam the rev to make the chaingun something closer to a shotgun! Balanced by the time in jamming in and out, and reasonable ammo consumption. Could be balanced to 15 bullets and more decrease in accuracy.

I think that ammochain should be changed to "unlimited ammo while chainfiring", so the player must be able to see the enemies. I would say, the first "initial" burst should use ammo, but thereafter ammo is unlimited until all targets are destroyed. That's more Rambo-like, which seems to be where the master trait came from.

And I have not seen the mancubi issue, it does seem unreasonable, but the best way to avoid it is... to avoid them. Walking diagonally helps, and with Dodgemaster they may never hit you.
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thelaptop

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Re: "Hot Fire", an alternate reload for the chaingun, and other ideas
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 21:36 »

And this is perfectly reasonable?

Sure.  Why not?  It's like saying "oh I fired a chain gun at an imp along a hallway, killing it and the former human behind it".  If that is unreasonable (you only hit things you aim at), then Mancubi's "wild shots in the general direction of DoomGuy along hallway hits him" is also unreasonable.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 21:38 by thelaptop »
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ChaoticJosh

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Re: "Hot Fire", an alternate reload for the chaingun, and other ideas
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 21:41 »

Sure.  Why not?  It's like saying "oh I fired a chain gun at an imp along a hallway, killing it and the former human behind it".  If that is unreasonable (you only hit things you aim at), then Mancubi's "wild shots in the general direction of DoomGuy along hallway hits him" is also reasonable.

I'm afraid I don't get your analogy. What I was trying to get at was that it was unusual for the Mancubi to have the capacity to aim well, but that they simply choose not to, except in this very specific instance. These aren't wild shots, they were aimed precisely to my location, dealing incredible damage in a single turn. It's inconsistent, and wholly unfair.
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Tavana

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Re: "Hot Fire", an alternate reload for the chaingun, and other ideas
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 21:54 »

Code: [Select]
###X####
@......M
###X####

The alternative is to have the mancubi fire somewhere between this range. The problem is that you were stupid/unlucky enough to try to face a Mancubi in a very enclosed space. There's a much smaller area for their spread out range to fire in. If the explosions don't hit you, they'll hit the walls around you regardless, and you'll find it rather painful anyway.

I've rarely had the chance to meet Mancubi in these sort of situations, and I avoid it like the plague. That being said, I thought that the diagram above is how that it would be handled. If it's not, then...okay. I can see why you might be a bit upset. Regardless of the rockets hitting you directly or not, you're most likely going to feel a LOT of pain either way.
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leonresevil2

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Re: "Hot Fire", an alternate reload for the chaingun, and other ideas
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2010, 22:01 »

Sure.  Why not?  It's like saying "oh I fired a chain gun at an imp along a hallway, killing it and the former human behind it".  If that is unreasonable (you only hit things you aim at), then Mancubi's "wild shots in the general direction of DoomGuy along hallway hits him" is also unreasonable.

Mancubi rockets shouldn't be as accurate as a chaingun, however. It does bring about an interesting issue. Should mancubi be guaranteed at least one hit? I think that is an issue. If you see what the Mancubus looks like, you see that it has rockets on its arms. IMHO, firing even 2 rockets in one second would cause some drastic kickback, and 3 would be even more. It's the equivalent of saying "oh I can dual-wield rocket launchers, fire them at 120% speed from my hips, and still hit every time I fire!" That is ludicrous to think. If it takes 2 seconds to aim and fire a pistol, it should take far longer to accurately fire 3 rockets.

So, the mancubi shouldn't fire like a triangle, but instead fire a 2-3 shot burst with -5 or so accuracy. Balance the accuracy to make it hit once in every 2 bursts on average, I'd estimate.
I know the Mancubus is a monster, not a man, but still my opinion holds.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 22:02 by leonresevil2 »
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ChaoticJosh

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Re: "Hot Fire", an alternate reload for the chaingun, and other ideas
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2010, 22:05 »

Code: [Select]
###X####
@......M
###X####

The alternative is to have the mancubi fire somewhere between this range. The problem is that you were stupid/unlucky enough to try to face a Mancubi in a very enclosed space. There's a much smaller area for their spread out range to fire in. If the explosions don't hit you, they'll hit the walls around you regardless, and you'll find it rather painful anyway.

I've rarely had the chance to meet Mancubi in these sort of situations, and I avoid it like the plague. That being said, I thought that the diagram above is how that it would be handled. If it's not, then...okay. I can see why you might be a bit upset. Regardless of the rockets hitting you directly or not, you're most likely going to feel a LOT of pain either way.

If it were like the above diagram, I honestly wouldn't be complaining, as that'd make sense. But as I said, all three followed a straight line along the maximum sight range down a hallway and hit me directly, killing my full health character instantly.

So don't get me wrong, I like Mancubi. I like sissy slapping them when I get close, and I like being paranoid about them when I'm against a wall, but this is just obscene.
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Tavana

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Re: "Hot Fire", an alternate reload for the chaingun, and other ideas
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2010, 22:54 »

I always enjoy when people complain about dying while playing a Roguelike.

Leonresevil2, have you ever played Doom? Seen what Mancubi look like? They're huge. They have massive amounts of fat, and under that massive amount of fat, massive amounts of muscle, connected to massive amounts of metal. Also, there are rocket launchers, fueled by the screams coming from your mouth when you see them. Sadly, unlike other roguelikes, you do not have the option to duct tape your mouth shut to make sure their rocket launchers run dry.

That being said, I personally do kinda like the option of "Three rockets in one go? Alright, let's let each rocket be less accurate than the first." +0, -3, -6 sequentially, for example. And then rockets #2 and #3 can have a chance to be aimed to the side (a la triangle) but then have a slightly higher accuracy.
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BEEF

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Re: "Hot Fire", an alternate reload for the chaingun, and other ideas
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2010, 22:56 »

So, the mancubi shouldn't fire like a triangle, but instead fire a 2-3 shot burst with -5 or so accuracy. Balance the accuracy to make it hit once in every 2 bursts on average, I'd estimate.
I know the Mancubus is a monster, not a man, but still my opinion holds.
For what it's worth, in real life rockets are most useful because they DON'T have any recoil (because they're accelerating in the air instead of in your gun), plus mancubi are so fat they probably could play catch with each other without flinching. As for the triangle pattern, I just assumed that represents their inaccuracy already, and they're inaccurate because they feel like it.

For the corridor problem, it would make sense if instead of changing the aim of any rockets that would blow up in a mancubus's face, he would just not fire those rockets. They could still back up as usual when that would block them all, and might try to move to maximize the number of rockets they can fire.
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ChaoticJosh

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Re: "Hot Fire", an alternate reload for the chaingun, and other ideas
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2010, 00:17 »

Before this recoil discussion progresses any further, I'm reminded of another suggestion that I would actually appreciate much more than the above two:

There is FAR too much red in this game, or, to be more exact, there's too many things which have the same shade of dark-red. I don't know about everyone else, but my eyesight isn't the best, and this leads me to regularly overlook really obvious dark-red colored things.

What I'm talking about:

Barons of Hell
Former Captains
Large Medkits
lava

All these things will VERY OFTEN be overlooked as part of the scenery, since a great deal of walls are red, as are bloodied floors. With so much red in the environment, I have to really strain my eyes to glean what is and isn't a monster or item or pool of lava. I can't tell you how many times I've been hurt by a Baron that just conveniently blended into the background, because my mind doesn't pick up on it right off the bat, and I often find myself having to get a really close look at the screen in order to make sure what's lava or a bloodstain.

If there's already an option to alter the coloring scheme of monsters, then I wouldn't mind being steered in it's direction, but if there isn't, then I'd like some more variety in the colors of some of the monsters, large medkits, and lava.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 00:18 by ChaoticJosh »
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