DRL > Discussion
New Fireangel reqs, better or worse?
action52:
After playing with both shotgun builds for awhile, and thinking about it, I think that which one is easier depends largely on what kind of challenge game you're doing.
Standard game:
Being able to use other weapons compensates for the weaknesses of an Army of the Dead run. The double shotgun will take care of big groups fast, as long as you have cover and there isn't anything really dangerous like a Revenant or Arch-Vile in there. The combat shotgun (or better yet, assault shotgun) will let you keep knocking enemies back and kill them without even letting them into your sight. Put a few points of SoB on there and it's even better. If you manage to beat The Wall--which is relatively easy with shotguns on HNTR or HMP--you'll have a missile launcher for quick strikes on far-away enemies, and a backpack to help you stock up on shells for later levels. If you get ambushed by poweful enemies, or see an Arch-Vile, just break out your BFG and let 'er rip.
Fireangel is still just as useful to have on the later levels. Being able to dodge Arch-Viles, Mancubi, and Revenants is EXTREMELY helpful no matter what. Being able to take barrel explosions is nice too, but since most barrels are napalm in the later stages, you still have to be careful. Being immune from your own rockets looks great on paper, but most of the time, if you have enemies close enough that the blast would hurt you, an armor-piercing double shotgun would be much better. So I think it's a toss-up on which one is easier in the endgame. But if you factor in that taking TaN and Badass will make the early game super-easy, I think Army of the Dead comes out way ahead in this respect.
Angel of Berserk / Angel of Marksmanship:
Obviously both are nearly useless, since you can't use shotguns.
Angel of Shotgunnery:
In an Army of the Dead game, you're going to have serious problems after level 15. Since your character is bad at escape you'll need to kill most enemies you encounter, and unless you're lucky enough to find a Jackhammer, you're going to have a really tough time with just shotguns. Even if you do get a Jackhammer, that will just make the ammo crunch even worse. It's quite possible that you won't see a single shotgun sergeant past level 15. Meanwhile you're using tons of shells, and you (almost definitely) won't be getting a backpack. That means even if you pick up every single shell you find, you might find yourself running out later on. Finally you have to face the Cyberdemon. At long range, your shotgun may as well be a pea shooter, and at close range you will be getting hit by a lot of rockets even if you're running.
However, a Fireangel run will wind up being almost as easy as a standard game. The early game will still be difficult, but the endgame will be a breeze. You can run past most enemies, which will conserve ammo and just increase your surviveability overall. On the rare occasion that you have a pack of enemies backed by an Arch-Vile blocking your exit, chances are good you can find a berserk pack or invulnerability sphere nearby. Even if you don't, if you're running and you have a few med-packs, you can probably make a mad dash for the stairs. And the Cyberdemon will still be a cakewalk.
(Now for the record, the regular game and AoS are the only versions I have played extensively. But here's how I think the builds would work on other challenges based on what I have played.)
Angel of Light Travel:
Due to inventory being scarce, Fireangel is a lot better since you can get by with less ammo.
Angel of Impatience, Angel of Purity, Angel of Masochism:
In all of these, health is at a premium, so you'll want TaN and Badass. This makes Army of the Dead better, although you might be better off avoiding shotguns entirely. Not saying it's necessarily the best choice for any of these challenges, but definitely better than Fireangel.
Angel of Haste:
Angel of Haste runs are such a crapshoot, it's tough to say which is better. There are fewer Hell levels, so you should have an easier time making your shotgun shells last to the end. But if you don't find a rocket launcher or BFG, you will have a hard time killing stronger demons.
Angel of Red Alert:
You'll want Hellrunner, and you won't have time to kill most enemies. Fireangel is way better.
Angel of Max Carnage:
Doesn't this challenge make Dodgemaster useless? In any case, you will need to focus on killing demons before they kill you, rather than escape. This makes Army of the Dead an obvious choice if we're only talking shotgun master traits--although Ammochain is probably even better.
Angel of 100:
To be honest, ammo gets so scarce that shotguns aren't viable no matter what. Hell, the best strategy is arguably to skip master traits entirely, since this will keep all the basic and advanced traits open.
Angel of Pacifism:
Army of the Dead is useless, obviously. Fireangel is useful, but is it really worth pouring three experience levels into useless traits? You're probably better off just going for Dodgemaster and Badass, using your extra levels to build Hellrunner, TaN, and Ironman.
Anyway, these are my opinions. If you disagree or have anything to add, please feel free to correct me.
Polymeron:
This requirements change is actually the one 0.9.9.1 change I have a gripe with, for a couple of reasons. One is petty: I like Juggler a LOT, and the new requirements make it harder to combine the two. The second is more general though - this essentially makes Fireangel shotgun-only, whereas before it was open to all: Reduces the possible viable strategies. That's generally in my book as a Bad Thing.
On another petty note, I don't even like to take Shottyman when I'm playing AoSh, much less any other time.
Game Hunter:
Generally, which shotgun build you use depends on how much you're willing to depend on your shotties. MAD is super-conservative in that respect: armor-piercing rounds turn scouting into a way to kill things, and double shotty WILL kill an up-close spider or rev in one shot, with few exceptions (super shotgun turns that into no exception). MFa, on the other hand, is a matter of being able to use the double shotgun whenever the hell you feel like it, which allows you to conserve shells more often, thus lowering your need for shell space, thus giving you room for other guns. If it's AoSg, I would always recommend MAD over MFa, especially if you want to reach Shotty Diamond.
As per your other comments:
--- Quote from: action52 ---Angel of Light Travel:
Due to inventory being scarce, Fireangel is a lot better since you can get by with less ammo.
--- End quote ---
Some challenge are really better off with neither build, and AoLT is probably the most Ammochain-reliant challenge I have ever seen. If you really had to play AoLT without Ammochain, I'd STILL probably choose super-modding a chaingun because it carries the most ammo.
--- Quote from: action52 ---Angel of Purity:
In all of these, health is at a premium, so you'll want TaN and Badass.
--- End quote ---
On the contrary, Purity makes Badass practically useless because you'll never go past 100%! However, MFa still allows for TaN, so you can try TaN->TaN->HR->HR->Rel->Rel->SM->DM->MFa, or something along those lines.
--- Quote from: action52 ---Angel of Max Carnage:
Doesn't this challenge make Dodgemaster useless? In any case, you will need to focus on killing demons before they kill you, rather than escape. This makes Army of the Dead an obvious choice if we're only talking shotgun master traits--although Ammochain is probably even better.
--- End quote ---
To answer your question: no, to my knowledge, DM still does exactly what it does, even in a game where to-hit bonuses are maximized. Remember, DM AUTOMATICALLY dodges all attacks on the first sidestep. I should point out, though, that enemies can still miss you during AoMC when it comes to dodging an attack, so never forget to run in a pinch.
With that in mind, MFa is useful when dodging the occasional projectile you'll allow to fly, and the already-maximized damage you're dealing with shotties doesn't make me worry all that much about armor. It'll take some more shells than MAD, but (and again, you can get TaN at any point) avoiding splash damage can be absolutely critical.
--- Quote from: action52 ---Angel of Pacifism:
Army of the Dead is useless, obviously. Fireangel is useful, but is it really worth pouring three experience levels into useless traits? You're probably better off just going for Dodgemaster and Badass, using your extra levels to build Hellrunner, TaN, and Ironman.
--- End quote ---
Depends, is avoiding splash damage that useful? Yes. Yes it is. However, it doesn't really matter for the Diamond run when you aren't allowed HR, which has now been made harder by the fact that MFa requires HR. If it doesn't matter, then I would probably like MFa if only because splash damage is a lot of the endgame damage for a person who can't attack anything.
EDIT:
--- Quote from: Polymeron ---On another petty note, I don't even like to take Shottyman when I'm playing AoSh, much less any other time.
--- End quote ---
I'm curious is to what you'd get if not Shottyman for a shotty run. SoaB is remarkably insignificant damage for any shotgun (double included) and Finesse, should you be correctly using the combat shotty, is only useful once the double comes into play...which it doesn't until barons, taking you to around clvl 5 or 6. The rest are either defensive or useless for shotguns.
If you refer to the trait that Shottyman GIVES...well, perhaps it's not as useful as some of the other adv traits (Badass's 200% perm, Intuition's monster vision, Whizkid's super-modding), but it's remarkably useful if your timing's right: fire, sidestep, and repeat, never worrying to reload. Combined with HR (ala MFa) it makes reloading REALLY fast and almost impossible for you to get hurt. Timing of the enemies, however, is critical and may or may not require Finesse to be optimized. Don't expect to pull this off against Arach caves, for instance.
If you, however, refer to the fact that you need two Reloaders to get Shottyman, making either one or the other kinda useless...yeah, I tend to agree. At least Reloader can still useful on a non-shotty build such as a non-MGK pistol game or a non-MAc damage run (things like Railgun and rocket launcher really benefit).
Polymeron:
My strategy is to juggle shotguns - walk around with two normal shotguns and juggler, lots of finesse, combat shotgun and double shotgun at the ready. It's enough to kill anything short of a Baron, and I can usually hold my own against those too with enough cover. Last time I took Shottyman during AoSh I ended up regretting it. Though I guess I seriously needed Army of the Dead for that Cybie... Ended up nuking him instead.
This is the 0.9.9 .mortem from that run, you can see my build... A pity the nuking killed my score too.
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DoomRL (v.0.9.9) roguelike post-mortem character dump
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Jugglor, level 13 Cacodemon Sergeant, sacrificed himself to kill the Cyberdemon
on level 25 of the Phobos base.
He survived 141076 turns and scored 5949 points.
He played for 2 hours, 55 minutes and 2 seconds.
He wasn't afraid to be hurt plenty.
He killed 683 out of 683 hellspawn. (100%)
This ass-kicking marine killed all of them!
He was an Angel of Shotgunnery!
-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------
Medal of Prejudice
UAC Star (bronze cluster)
Aurora Medallion
Hell Champion Medal
Veteran Silver Badge
Shottyman Silver Badge
-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------
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-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------
Health -5997/80 Experience 70037/13
ToHit Ranged +0 ToHit Melee +0 ToDmg Ranged +0 ToDmg Melee +0
-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------
Ironman (Level 3)
Finesse (Level 2)
Tough as nails (Level 3)
Reloader (Level 1)
Juggler (Level 1)
Whizkid (Level 1)
Badass (Level 1)
Fireangel (Level 1)
Fin->Jug->Fin->TaN->TaN->Iro->WK->Bad->MFa->TaN->Iro->Iro->Rel->
-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------
[a] [ Armor ] modified red armor [2/4] (38%) (B)
[b] [ Weapon ] modified Assault Shotgun (9d3) [0/6] (P1)
[c] [ Boots ] modified plasteel boots [4/4] (93%) (A)
[d] [ Prepared ] modified double shotgun (9d3)x3 [0/2] (B1P1)
-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------
[a] advanced shotgun (8d3) [1/1]
[b] modified combat shotgun (7d3) [5/5] (T2)
[c] BFG 9000 (10d8) [0/100]
[d] modified Plasma Shotgun (8d3) [2/39] (B1)
[e] green armor [1/1] (100%)
[f] green armor [1/1] (100%)
[g] blue armor [2/2] (100%)
[h] modified blue armor [2/2] (67%) (A)
[i] blue armor [2/2] (100%)
[j] blue armor [1/2] (31%)
[k] shotgun shell (x45)
[l] shotgun shell (x50)
[m] envirosuit pack
[n] Gothic Boots [10/10] (188%)
-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------
96 former humans
102 former sergeants
36 former captains
88 imps
61 demons
103 lost souls
41 cacodemons
25 barons of hell
1 Cyberdemon
20 hell knights
38 arachnotrons
11 former commandos
7 pain elementals
18 arch-viles
16 mancubi
20 revenants
-- History ---------------------------------------------------
He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
He left the Arena as a champion!
On level 4 he stormed the Chained Court.
On level 9 he found the Assault Shotgun!
On level 9 he found Hell's Armory.
On level 9 he found the Plasma Shotgun!
On level 11 he found the Gothic Boots!
On level 13 he ventured into the Halls of Carnage.
On level 18 he ventured into the Spider's Lair.
He cleared the Lair, kickin' serious spider ass!
On level 19 he found the Minigun!
On level 23 he entered the Lava Pits.
He managed to clear the Lava Pits completely!
Then at last he found Phobos Arena!
He nuked level 25!
On level 25 he finally sacrificed himself to kill the Cyberdemon.
-- Messages --------------------------------------------------
thermonuclear bomb. Warning! Explosion in 10 seconds! The
Cyberdemon hits you. Your red armor is damaged! Warning! Explosion in
9 seconds!
The Cyberdemon fires! You dodge! Boom!
The Cyberdemon reloads his rocket launcher. Warning! Explosion in 8
seconds!
Warning! Explosion in 7 seconds!
Warning! Explosion in 6 seconds!
Warning! Explosion in 5 seconds!
Warning! Explosion in 4 seconds!
Warning! Explosion in 3 seconds!
Warning! Explosion in 2 seconds!
Warning! Explosion in 1 seconds!
You hear an explosion! You hear an explosion! You hear an explosion! You
hear an explosion! You hear an explosion! You feel relatively safe
-- General ---------------------------------------------------
Before him 104 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
95 of those were killed.
2 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
And 6 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.
Some rumours though, say that the Cyberdemon was killed already!
Is he immortal? 1 souls claim to have killed him...
1 killed the bastard and survived.
--------------------------------------------------------------
--- End code ---
Note it's H|YAAM and I didn't even take Rel before the last level - didn't need it. I had enough loaded shells around to not need to reload anyplace unsafe. And if somebody bothered me in the middle of reloading, well, I could always juggle into something that could kill them instantly.
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