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Author Topic: Saving request  (Read 4931 times)

Brewtal Legend

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Saving request
« on: March 22, 2010, 23:23 »

I was going to ask about this again. It was said that others would like this feature and it could be possible in the future. I still think it would great if the player could save anytime like nethack or rogue instead of having to find stairs first.

http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,639.msg5965.html#msg5965

I was going to comment on the old post, but it seems to be locked.
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Melon

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Re: Saving request
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2010, 00:40 »

One word: NAY!
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UnderAPaleGreySky

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Re: Saving request
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2010, 01:31 »

I was going to ask about this again. It was said that others would like this feature and it could be possible in the future. I still think it would great if the player could save anytime like nethack or rogue instead of having to find stairs first.

http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,639.msg5965.html#msg5965

I was going to comment on the old post, but it seems to be locked.
Such a save feature would break the game, even if the data was hard-coded into another file.

EDIT: And regarding old topics that "seem to have been locked", most threads have a time-lock on them, IIRC.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 01:38 by UnderAPaleGreySky »
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AStranger

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Re: Saving request
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2010, 03:58 »

After having read the last thread the debate seemed to dwindle down to time being spent on saving or mob AI. Personally I'd have to vote for mob AI as a better goal to spend the time on.

I assume the reason you have to be standing on the stairs to save is so the game doesn't have to save the old level or the new level, it just needs to remember what your character looked like between those two levels, ignoring the actual maps. Unfortunately saving the map doesn't mean you can just write the values in ram to a file and it'll all work, because if you loaded and just put a copy of the old values in the new memory you were allocated, none of the pointer addresses will be pointing anywhere close to the correct spot (run-on sentence over). Which means to save the map, it and everything on it would have to be converted to persistable data structures, then converted back on loading.

It all boils down to Nethack style saving/loading will take real coding time to implement and more time to update when slightly larger the minor changes are made. I could be completely off on my assumptions, but they seem pretty sound.
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Brewtal Legend

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Re: Saving request
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2010, 14:39 »

I know there was the issue of whether to spend time on AI or saving. I still think saving would be a really good feature. I figured since the old post is almost 3 years old, the question might be valid again since time has been spent on AI since then.

Having to save only on stairs is a bit of a hassle, especially if you have to leave the game suddenly or for what ever reason you need/want to quit. I prefer to explore the whole level before moving on to the next.  Plus if you save on the stairs without exploring, you never get to when you load the game back up next time.

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One word: NAY!

Why?

I don't see how it would break the game. At least not gameplay wise.

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Melon

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Re: Saving request
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2010, 01:16 »

This is a fast paced game, you shouldn't save every single step. Allowing only to save on stairs makes the game faster and limits save scumming.
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leonresevil2

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Re: Saving request
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2010, 07:29 »

Saving on stairs isn't that big of a hassle. If you need to abandon the game, simply don't close it. If your game time is an issue, then you are either playing for a speed run (likely under 30 minutes, which you can dedicate or reasonably retry later), or you are concerned about a time value that really isn't important (who cares if you took 2 hours or 20?). Considering the amount of effort that would be needed to make the change, I say No to saving anywhere. It's a hassle that can be dealt with.
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action52

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Re: Saving request
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2010, 17:00 »

This is a fast paced game, you shouldn't save every single step. Allowing only to save on stairs makes the game faster and limits save scumming.

This is not a fast-paced game unless you intentionally play it fast. You can spend 20 minutes thinking about every single move if you want. In fact, when you're surrounded by enemies you most definitely DO want to stop and think about things. Reacting to everything lightning-quick without thinking about it will get you killed.

Saving every step would be stupid anyway, since saving the game makes you exit every time. And as long as you're playing the game legitimately, it won't make the game any easier. If you are savescumming, then you aren't getting the true game experience anyway, so I don't see what difference it makes whether you savescum ever step or every level. Either way it doesn't affect my game in any way. Why does it bother you if other people savescum?

I personally would love to be able to save any time. In fact, I would like this even more than improved enemy AI. However I understand that I am the minority here. So I have no problem with other gameplay aspects taking precedent over this one, but I definitely want to see this implemented.
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thelaptop

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Re: Saving request
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2010, 18:32 »

I'll go out on a limb and say that allowing arbitrary saves is detrimental to game play.  By limiting saves only to between levels (aka when on the stairs), it negates the need for the player to remember what was going on in the map prior to the save, particularly when the next time the player loads the game, it might have been days since then.  Giving the player a clean slate (or level in this case) is beneficial for the player -- no need to remember what was going on other than the challenge mode activated and the build one is striving for.

DoomRL is a fast-paced game, compared to other rogue-likes.  However, "fast-paced" here does not refer to having to move all over the map at a frenetic pace -- it means that the total time required to complete a run is significantly shorter than that of other rogue-likes.  There are no quests, no fixed special item that you need, no long drawn out levelling up process, no item crafting, no shops, nothing -- that's what was meant by fast-paced.  Sure, one can take 20 hours to figure out the next best move via alpha-beta pruning, but as far as the game play goes, it's still fast.

The last thing to note is that for DoomRL, completely exploring each level is not a prerequisite to winning.
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action52

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Re: Saving request
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2010, 23:54 »

I'll go out on a limb and say that allowing arbitrary saves is detrimental to game play.  By limiting saves only to between levels (aka when on the stairs), it negates the need for the player to remember what was going on in the map prior to the save, particularly when the next time the player loads the game, it might have been days since then.  Giving the player a clean slate (or level in this case) is beneficial for the player -- no need to remember what was going on other than the challenge mode activated and the build one is striving for.

There would be nothing stopping you from waiting until you explored the level, going to the staircase, and saving there. In fact, I would probably do so whenever it was convenient to me. But for times when it is inconvenient, I would like to be able to close the game and come back later.

As for the game being "fast-paced," the original Rogue is arguably more "fast-paced" in the way you describe. In fact, later stages of the game are usually just a mad dash to find the staircase and get out of there before the monsters kill you. And the original Doom was literally a fast-paced action game. Both these games allowed you to save whenever you wanted to. I don't think it was detrimental to gameplay in either of them.

Because even if you think saving too much is detrimental to gameplay, the thing is you never have to save your game. You can save as much or little as you want to. It's your choice. So having the option to save more shouldn't affect your gameplay unless you consciously allow it to.
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Tavana

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Re: Saving request
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2010, 05:10 »

I could put together a huge pros and cons list if I felt it was worth the time (fingers crossed someone gets the irony of that statement), but in the end I just don't see the point of being able to save at any point in the game.

Yes, you have your arguments, and yes, I have mine. For me, it just comes down to this: implementation would take time, need to be heavily tested, and would most likely have to be updated with every new version.

So, for me at least, the benefits (I can walk away from the computer 30 seconds sooner!) outweigh the drawbacks (Kornel wastes spends even more of his time on non-core features). Just start carrying more homing phase devices instead. =)
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Chainsaw

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Re: Saving request
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2010, 07:06 »

Hi everyone

I have a different take on this: When I play at work, during lunch breaks, I need to be able to stop mid-level sometimes, and minimizing isn't always an option.

I vote for an Exit option, it doesn't have to save the current level, I'm happy to redo the level. This would work together with an option that auto-saves when you walk down stairs.

That's my pov on it anyway, nice to meet you all!
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Saving request
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2010, 10:04 »

I vote for an Exit option, it doesn't have to save the current level, I'm happy to redo the level. This would work together with an option that auto-saves when you walk down stairs.
This would be much worse than save anytime. In particular, you could just exit any time you run into trouble.
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Madtrixr

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Re: Saving request
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2010, 15:03 »

Has anyone already mentioned the fact that if you could save anywhere, a lot more people would see a monster, get behind a wall, save, and scum it until they won?

Just wondering.
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UnderAPaleGreySky

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Re: Saving request
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2010, 16:06 »

Isn't that a given?
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