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Author Topic: Second Pistol Master Trait  (Read 7325 times)

Einander

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Second Pistol Master Trait
« on: March 29, 2010, 14:25 »

One thing that stands out about the Master Traits is that there are currently seven, and three of the four weapon groups have two Master Traits each. Melee has Vampire (tank) and Blademaster (speed/dodge), Shotgun has Army of the Dead (tank) and Fireangel (evasive tank + rocket launcher for armor, though it loses a lot on AoSg), and chainfire has Ammochain (all-out offensive) and Cateye (tactical/defensive). Pistol has Gun Kata, which is largely defensive.

Right now, there's basically two pistol builds, the Gun Kata build and a more offensive one, which uses Dualgunner and Son of a Bitch or Finesse. I think it'd make the game a bit more interesting if there was a second Master Trait corresponding to the offensive builds.

One idea I had:

Bullet Dance
Requires: Dualgunner, Triggerhappy (1)
Blocks: Finesse, Tough as Nails, Reloader
Changes pistol alternate fire to full-auto; fires up to six bullets. (Works with Triggerhappy if there are enough bullets to fire; bulk mods become useful!)

Thoughts on balancing the alternate fire (any combination of below):
1) Make it do shrapnel damage (double enemy armor)
2) Double firing time (with Son of a Gun 2, 1.44; with Son of a Gun 3, 0.96)
3) Decrease accuracy (to +1 or +2?)

I'm half-tempted to say that the fact you would go through ammo ridiculously quickly would balance it, even without the above options. It'd still be tactically useful with them, especially since you'd have +4-+6 bonus damage per bullet; it'd allow you to make one enemy very, very dead (or several enemies in a line) in exchange for needing a second to reload - if enemies were spread out, you'd be comparatively helpless (especially if you weren't near a door) if you used it and didn't have a second to reload.

It'd be similar to the Grammaton Cleric Baretta's option select, but with a lower magazine, base damage, and whatever nerfs are applied to it; the Cleric Baretta would certainly still be a useful pick-up. The Trigun, Blaster, and Anti-Freak Jackal might all be a bit ridiculous with it, though. I think Gun Kata would be slightly stronger, since it'd be better against groups, but this would be devastating with proper use of walls and/or a Unique or Blaster.

Thoughts?
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ChaoticJosh

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Re: Second Pistol Master Trait
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2010, 14:55 »

I like the idea of there being another master trait for pistol lovers.

In fact I have an idea of a master trait inspired by Dirty Harry, which I'll write up in a bit after I think about it some more.
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Re: Second Pistol Master Trait
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2010, 16:32 »

Sharpshooter
Requires: Son of a Gun (3), Whizkid (1)
Blocks: Hellrunner, Son of a Bitch, Brute (What.  I think the other two clearly represent a huge loss as it is.)
Quote: "Bang bang, you're dead!"
Benefits: You have a 20% percent chance to cause critical damage, automatically hitting and dealing maximum damage to the enemy.  In addition, you have +2 sight range* around corners.

*Maxes out at your normal sight range, whatever that may be.

The last one needs some more explaining, I reckon.  In that example, commas represent tiles you can't see (periods, therefore, are tiles you can see).
,,.......,, <-- without Sharpshooter
#####X#####

........... <-- with Sharpshooter
#####X#####

,,,,..,,,,, <-- without Sharpshooter
#####/#####
......X....

,,....,,,,, <-- with Sharpshooter
#####/#####
......X....

You still wouldn't be able to shoot anywhere that a wall inevitably blocks, but it does let you know if the enemy's hugging the wall.  (And, especially in the first example, it gives you precious time to kill that enemy hugging the wall with far more accurate shots.)  The percentage can be changed in case it's a little weak (to 25/30%) but I know I'd love having this pistol alternative, especially because it's built for one gun instead of two (although two guns is still possible).

I'm only for this because Kornel added a second shotty trait.  Keep in mind that these benefits still apply to non-pistol weapons (although with rapid-fire weapons it's comparable to just get EEs/SoaBs; the bonus would be applied to individual shots, after all) so 20% chance for a rocket to hit with 36 damage isn't too shabby of an alternative, and 20% chance for a BFG to deal all 100 damage is pretty freaking sick.  Still, you're giving up a lot for it otherwise, like SoaB for any sort of reliable power and HR for any way to dodge.  It's a build made just for the coward's game.
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Frankosity

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Re: Second Pistol Master Trait
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2010, 16:43 »

Rapidfire is an interesting idea, but it really exacerbates the issue of clip size for pistoleros.

A good pistol build that focuses on damage could be one that gives pistol shots penetration, making it easier to deal with crowds without having to hide in a corner and reload.
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Fanta Hege

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Re: Second Pistol Master Trait
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2010, 17:29 »

Fastest of the west

Requires; Juggler, SOAG(3), SOAB (1)
Blocks;  Hellrunner, Brute, DUALGUNNER
Quote; "...Bang!"
Effect; Completely discards the fireing time on the first and the last shot of your clip. You will also be quarenteed the first shot to an enemy when one comes in line of sight.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 17:32 by Fanta Hege »
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Gargulec

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Re: Second Pistol Master Trait
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2010, 17:39 »

Fastest of the west

Requires; Juggler, SOAG(3), SOAB (1)
Blocks;  Hellrunner, Brute, DUALGUNNER
Quote; "...Bang!"
Effect; Completely discards the fireing time on the first and the last shot of your clip. You will also be quarenteed the first shot to an enemy when one comes in line of sight.

That's it! Exactly the idea I wanted to see!
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Re: Second Pistol Master Trait
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2010, 19:44 »

Note: this post is long, but bear with me.

I'm intrigued that you chose to block DG, considering that "advanced" traits have never been blocked before.  Wouldn't it be equally possible to just force the effect to only work when holding one gun?  (This means you have room for a more appropriate block, like TaN or EE, and that DG still won't be chosen on account of it being useless with the master trait.)

Otherwise I like the sound of it, we could use another Juggler after losing it on MFa.  Frankly, though, I can't imagine NOT using this build if it were available.  You are effectively reducing your firing time by one-third which, compounded with the -60% of SoaG(x3) and -30% of Fin(x2) (we'll say you get the second one later because it'd be foolish not to) and that comes out to (0.667)(0.40)(0.70) = 0.187 firing time.  This is comparable to the blaster with the same, non-mastered trait (looking at 5.5 shots per seconds as opposed to the blaster's six), not to mention you can still get SoaB and WK...and it costs half the bullets of a MGK build!

The second benefit is also quite strong, as I assume it immediately stops the clock whenever an enemy moves into your sight range.  This gives you roughly six shots before most enemies would be allowed to retaliate, and if we're looking at 2d4+6 (SoaB(x3),SoaG(x3)) = 8-14 = 11 damage per shot, that's...pretty insane.  Not to mention you can raise that with some power mods.  Also, this could alternatively overlap with Cateye, granting less damage but more time to shoot before they even see you.  (This is assuming that there isn't a mechanic already in play that forbids more than one master trait, although I figure it'd be added once there IS overlap.  Just a technicality.)

I like it, I really do, but upon first inspection it sounds vastly overpowered.  Blocking EE or TaN would help for starters.

I should probably comment on Bullet Dance, too, while I'm at it.  My first impression is that you have a permanent overcharged chaingun, with an emphasis on damage instead of shots.  Firing all six shots at once (in BOTH pistols, mind you) is (2d4+4)x12 = 108-144= 120 damage (neglecting armor, which is -12 per point) once you hit level seven (probably 2d4+6 by the time you're done, which averages 144).  This kind of damage per second is sickeningly overkill.  Furthermore, you can just as handily full-auto a single pistol, swap, then full-auto the other.  It wouldn't be a bad idea, however, to shoot out half your bullets and full-auto the rest.  If you want to make it more practical I would suggest semi-auto (ie, 3 bullets per burst) instead, which will still kill most enemies in a single burst.

To balance properly, doubling the fire time is probably the best way to go.  This is basically saying that you are uninterrupted while firing the burst but must be prepared for the retaliation afterward.  According to your trait blocks, decreased accuracy would be fixed with a single EE, and shrapnel damage doesn't really make sense.  Also (again, as a technicality) you still leave the way for MGK open.  I can only imagine using full-auto after dodging an attack, OBVIOUSLY reloading, and starting over again.  Get a blaster once this trait's already in effect and the game is already over, I don't care if you're doing Nightmare! Mortuary.

Frankly, non-Kata pistol builds are quite powerful as it is: the problems tend to stem from lack of bullets and exposure.  That was my intention for the Sharpshooter build, which effectively blocks SoaB (preventing monster-like damage) for the ability to screen your advances into the next room, and an effective 20% bonus to your overall damage which carries on to other weapons.  As with MFa, it's a specialized build that has potential for other weapons, thus making the way for more usage outside of its respective challenge.  I like the others, but I believe they focus on that which has already been addressed in the other traits.
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Fanta Hege

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Re: Second Pistol Master Trait
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2010, 11:25 »

Note: this post is long, but bear with me.

I'm intrigued that you chose to block DG, considering that "advanced" traits have never been blocked before.  Wouldn't it be equally possible to just force the effect to only work when holding one gun?  (This means you have room for a more appropriate block, like TaN or EE, and that DG still won't be chosen on account of it being useless with the master trait.)

Otherwise I like the sound of it, we could use another Juggler after losing it on MFa.  Frankly, though, I can't imagine NOT using this build if it were available.  You are effectively reducing your firing time by one-third which, compounded with the -60% of SoaG(x3) and -30% of Fin(x2) (we'll say you get the second one later because it'd be foolish not to) and that comes out to (0.667)(0.40)(0.70) = 0.187 firing time.  This is comparable to the blaster with the same, non-mastered trait (looking at 5.5 shots per seconds as opposed to the blaster's six), not to mention you can still get SoaB and WK...and it costs half the bullets of a MGK build!

The second benefit is also quite strong, as I assume it immediately stops the clock whenever an enemy moves into your sight range.  This gives you roughly six shots before most enemies would be allowed to retaliate, and if we're looking at 2d4+6 (SoaB(x3),SoaG(x3)) = 8-14 = 11 damage per shot, that's...pretty insane.  Not to mention you can raise that with some power mods.  Also, this could alternatively overlap with Cateye, granting less damage but more time to shoot before they even see you.  (This is assuming that there isn't a mechanic already in play that forbids more than one master trait, although I figure it'd be added once there IS overlap.  Just a technicality.)

I like it, I really do, but upon first inspection it sounds vastly overpowered.  Blocking EE or TaN would help for starters.


You bring forth very good points. I really didn't think of all the way through.. however hows this;

    Fastest of the west

    Requires; Juggler, SOAG(3), SOAB (1)
    Blocks;  Hellrunner, EagleEye, DUALGUNNER
    Quote; "...Bang!"
    Effect; You're quarenteed to get the first shot to any enemy that comes into the line of sight no matter of the movement speed, this first shot is also free of any fireing time.
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Re: Second Pistol Master Trait
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2010, 13:49 »

Blocking EE is the way I'd have gone, too: sacrificing some accuracy for some freaking powerful shots.

Combining the free-shot with the clock-stopping line of sight is about the best way to handle it, I'd say.  I notice that you carefully rephrased the line of sight business, however, which appears to have generalized it for all instances of enemies appearing within your of sight, regardless of who move into whose sight.  Meaning, you can walk around and get free shots off whenever the enemy leaves your view (by you moving) and comes back into view (by them chasing).  That aside (which I bet can be figured out with some clever coding) it's well balanced at this point.  It's POSSIBLY a little underpowered, but since the build is already halfway to full gun dps potential, I like to think of it as an offensive gambit for someone who hopes to find a unique or exotic pistol.  Still useful in its own passive respect, too, because it forever prevents those damn viles revenants mancubi ANYTHING from hurting you without warning.  (That part I like, just the whole free-attack chasing is iffy but hopefully removable.)

Something I thought of just now concerned your previous benefits: a free bullet in the first slot can be abused quite amusingly with extra weapons.  Juggler + first free shot = "WTF just happened!" thought the demon, having watched the marine pull out ten pistols and fire them simultaneously, allowing it no time to notice the gaping, holey mound of flesh that was once its body hit the ground.  Losing consciousness, it leered at the profoundly impossible slinger, who proceeded to restock his guns before placing them in his pack, not at all fazed by the ridiculousness of what he had just done.

Good stuff.
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ChaoticJosh

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Re: Second Pistol Master Trait
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2010, 14:46 »

I suppose that by 'first shot' that it's the first shot between the two, and not the first bullet in a clip.

Also, juggler would have to be altered so that you could switch between them via a menu even if it did work like that.
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ChaoticJosh

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Re: Second Pistol Master Trait
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2010, 16:29 »

Also, I don't think the first iteration of the Fastest of the West Master Trait is that overpowered, since it would require an Angel of Marksmenship player to hold out for SEVEN characters levels using only a basic pistol, when it's typical to make a bee-line straight for dualgunner so that you can start dealing more damage to things. A charactering will likely only hit character level 7 after they're halfway through hell, and will VERY LIKELY not have hit it before reaching hell's gate, meaning that an AoMr player aiming for MFotW would have to tackle it with a normal pistol. Ouch. If someone had the cajones/patience to do that, then I say reward them with an awesome trait that evens the playing field for the last stretch of the game.
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Re: Second Pistol Master Trait
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2010, 19:51 »

Also, I don't think the first iteration of the Fastest of the West Master Trait is that overpowered, since it would require an Angel of Marksmenship player to hold out for SEVEN characters levels using only a basic pistol, when it's typical to make a bee-line straight for dualgunner so that you can start dealing more damage to things.
Well, I still have Brick Silver to finish.  I'll take you up on that challenge, see how difficult it is to handle the game on a single pistol (just finished a ITYTD single pistol run, really easy (although T3 and ITYTD helps that)).  Part of the usefulness of a single pistol is heavy ammo conservation, after all: 2d4+6 at 0.28 speed isn't too shabby, much better than a chaingun and more accurate, too.

Quote from: ChaoticJosh
Also, juggler would have to be altered so that you could switch between them via a menu even if it did work like that.
Oh, right.  It's been so long since I've actually used Juggler, seems I've forgotten how it works.
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bricks

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Re: Second Pistol Master Trait
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2010, 10:10 »

Another idea for a trait:  "Aimed" shots ignore armor and always deal maximum damage.
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Re: Second Pistol Master Trait
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2010, 21:40 »

Another idea for a trait:  "Aimed" shots ignore armor and always deal maximum damage.
Been thinking about this one for a while.  It fits quite well into my idea (could replace my percentage-based shot, for instance), but there's a small problem because aimed shots take twice as long as a normal shot and Finesse is somewhat opposed.  The double time really does hurt this kind of benefit: note that "maximum damage" is a spread difference of about six damage (so on average you're improving damage by three) and armor will never add more than four.  If you REALLY need to conserve ammo for some reason, it'd come in handy.  However, we could put a little spin on it instead:

Sharpshooter ((or Sniper, whichever fits better)

Requires: Son of a Gun (2), Reloader (1), Intuition (1)
Blocks: Finesse, Hellrunner, Ironman (Iro's a maybe: it's either that or TaN.  Depends on whether or not Iro is even allowed to be a blocked trait.)
Quote: "Waste a shot on the battlefield and you're as good as dead."
Benefits: Aimed shots instead pierce armor and deal maximum damage to their target, at 1.75x the firing speed.  Sight around corners* is increased by two.
*see first post on corner-sight

A bit of tweaking here and there and I could see it working.  Removing Finesse balances with slightly less aimed speed; the defense traits are balanced with the definitive advantage at spotting enemies; Reloader effectively blocks Cateye and is plenty useful on pistols anyway.  This build wouldn't work with other weapons, of course, as the other one did.

I'd still use it, it's basically the exact opposite of Gun Kata anyway.  Instead of guns blazing across the battlefield, it's made for those who approach pistols with a highly conservative, kill-before-seen strategy in mind.  Arach caves are a huge problem, naturally...unless you find yourself a really nice and fairly common crevice: corner-shooting will kill them before they have any line of sight.  Really, any sort of blocking will do just the trick, as you'll easily get some shots off before they can see you, and if you're using those aimed shots, SoaG(x3)+SoaB(x1) is exactly enough to knockback, which is reachable by level eight.

Oh, and my HNTR single-pistol game went without a hitch or special gun.  Cybie took a while but died without much a problem.  I gotta say though, a P3T2+SoaB(x3)+SoaG(x3), giving 2d7+6 = 8-20 = 14 damage on average is a great way to keep enemies at bay via knockback: two guns would be nearly impossible to both mod in this fashion.  I wouldn't expect HMP would be too much harder (you'll still only be using one gun by the time HA finishes up)...UV would have significant problems.  However, if we're talking about the original MFW, everything before UV would be a walk in the park and UV itself would pose only small challenges.
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Re: Second Pistol Master Trait
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2010, 04:30 »

I like this last concept despite being a Finesse-freak myself. One thing you didn't mention though is with Finesse blocked, you can't take Whizkid - which means you'll need exotics/uniques to stay competitive over time with this strategy.
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