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[Moniker]

Most have had that moment during an Angel of Berserk, Marksmanship, Shotgunnery when we find a railgun, Pancor Jackhammer, &c. that we couldn't use. So why not let the player abandon his challenge and start playing a normal game?

If it works for just these three challenges, I don't really see much potential for abuse, save maybe shotgunnery since you start with a shotgun. In which case, you could make it a "cheat" mode, and your score won't be listed, post-mortem won't be saved, &c.

[ChaoticJosh]

In angel of marksmenship you get a free mod at the start, as well as another in the arena. In angel of Haste, you start on level 2. In angel of pacifism, you get a free nuke as well as not having to tackle phobos base.

So yeah, there's potential for abuse, but the disqualifying a player's mortem idea seems to balance it out well enough, and hey, games are meant for the player to have fun, right? So let him have fun at the expense of his bragging rights. Sounds good to me.

[UnderAPaleGreySky]

Challenges are called so for a reason: they are an alternative, usually tweaked to make it more difficult. You take a weapon specific challenge knowing full well you could find an awesome weapon during the run, that may or may not be restricted.

[...] and hey, games are meant for the player to have fun, right?

Yes. And that's exactly what the challenge modes are: fun alternatives to normal gameplay.

[Moniker]

Challenges are called so for a reason: they are an alternative, usually tweaked to make it more difficult. You take a weapon specific challenge knowing full well you could find an awesome weapon during the run, that may or may not be restricted.
Yes. And that's exactly what the challenge modes are: fun alternatives to normal gameplay.

Knowing I'll be unable to use a rare weapon I've never tried before isn't part of the "fun" for me. One of the biggest grievances in .990 was the inflexibility with builds vs. unique finds. Exotics were created in the spirit of adapting the RNG to player builds. This would approach the problem from another angle by allowing the player to adapt himself to the RNG. I've found the railgun exactly once, and I know that people with loads of more gametime than me have never found it at all. I would've killed to abandon my challenge to give it a spin.

Challenges are not so-called because they force you to give up certain classes of uniques. They're so-called because they force you to give up certain classes of weapons, making you explore new tactical avenues with the challenge-specific type. Nearly every roguelike has a wizmode where your scores don't count, but that doesn't prevent it from being a legitimately challenging game. This isn't anywhere near as radical a suggestion as that.

[Game Hunter]

One of the biggest grievances in .990 was the inflexibility with builds vs. unique finds. Exotics were created in the spirit of adapting the RNG to player builds. This would approach the problem from another angle by allowing the player to adapt himself to the RNG.

If Kornel really wanted to adapt the RNG to player builds, he would force all exotic/unique weapons to be pistols for AoMr and shotguns for AoSg.  Also, I believe exotics were created more because uniques were so rare to find, not to mention that some uniques were far more powerful than others; having another class of equipment eased the system for those lesser uniques and allowed them to appear more often.

Challenges are not so-called because they force you to give up certain classes of uniques. They're so-called because they force you to give up certain classes of weapons, making you explore new tactical avenues with the challenge-specific type. Nearly every roguelike has a wizmode where your scores don't count, but that doesn't prevent it from being a legitimately challenging game. This isn't anywhere near as radical a suggestion as that.

I'm fairly certain only three out of the ten challenges limit you by weapon.  (I'd count Pacifism but it's not like you're even looking for items in those games.)  As for the rest, a lot of exotic and unique weapons ARE typically resistricted by build: already I've encountered five Cleavers, none of which I was even remotely considering to use because melee weapons are practically exclusive to AoB (and, to some degree, AoMC).  On easier difficulties it would take far too long to adapt to it, and on harder difficulties you're set from the get-go lest you be unprepared.  You go into the game with a build in mind, and if you're LUCKY, you get either a special weapon that fits the build or a weapon that doesn't require a build to be useful.

Exotics tend to be equipment that are useful in their own situations, regardless of the traits you picked (blaster conserves ammo, assault shotgun has insane reload, laser rifle almost always hits, BFG is...uh...BFG).  A lot of uniques tend to be more specialized (three pistols that would still suck w/o SoaG, Jackhammer needs a boatload of shells) that, even if you were going to abandon the challenge, you'd be hard-pressed to find them worthwhile anyway, especially when it comes to ammo types.

Now I'm not against putting this in, I just can't say I would find myself using it.  I kinda wish Cleaver could be an exception, though, with more of a chance to drop on AoB and less to drop anywhere else.  One time I found it in early in an A100 run and suicided right there.

[ChaoticJosh]

Challenges are called so for a reason: they are an alternative, usually tweaked to make it more difficult. You take a weapon specific challenge knowing full well you could find an awesome weapon during the run, that may or may not be restricted.
Yes. And that's exactly what the challenge modes are: fun alternatives to normal gameplay.

I don't quite get your point here Grey. A person can start a challenge, and then find a rare unique and then decide they want to ditch the challenge just to play with it. Are you saying a player should be trapped in their challenge just because they had the gall to decide to play a challenge in the first place, even if abandoning it would disqualify them of any bragging rights anyhow?

[UnderAPaleGreySky]

Challenges are not so-called because they force you to give up certain classes of uniques. They're so-called because they force you to give up certain classes of weapons, making you explore new tactical avenues with the challenge-specific type.

And when exactly did I state that challenges are called so because they force you to give up certain uniques? I stated that challenges are more difficult alternatives to normal gameplay; furthermore, I said that when you begin a weapon specific challenge, you know that there is a chance that a unique spawned may not be available to you. I certainly did not state that challenges are called challenges because they force you to give up certain uniques.

I don't quite get your point here Grey. A person can start a challenge, and then find a rare unique and then decide they want to ditch the challenge just to play with it. Are you saying a player should be trapped in their challenge just because they had the gall to decide to play a challenge in the first place, even if abandoning it would disqualify them of any bragging rights anyhow?

Trapped? A player chooses to play a challenge because they want to play that challenge. If they choose to play a weapon specific challenge, they're doing so to experience the game without relying on other weapon classes, including associated uniques; not to play, but ditch the challenge if a high tier unique spawns, regardless of whether or not they get to keep bragging rights.

[Game Hunter]

Heh, and then when you learn that, if you just play non-weapon-specific challenges and get a weapon that doesn't fit your build, you'll want a "trait reset" button that allows you to pick them over again, yeah?  I wouldn't mind that, but I think it would also be strictly for a wizard-mode game (that is, you accept that you will gain no medals or badges when you start, and that it will not count in the high scores list).

I see Grey's point: when you play a challenge you are accepting all of the conditions of the challenge, in spite of whatever the RNG may cook up for you.  Sometimes you'll get uniques that still fit within both your personal build and the game's conditions, sometimes you won't.  It's just as well to play the game without challenge modes: I'm fairly certain you can unlock everything without ever having to pick up an Angel.  When you play enough times and get to try everything out, those modes will still be waiting.  Ultimately this is a feature that could be better put to use in sandbox mode, allowing one to put together uniques for testing.

Though I AM pissed that someone I know got both Cleaver and Dragonslayer (not to mention his wielding it) in a single AoB run.  I may have gotten Pancor during a shotty build, but it'd be different if it were AoSg.

[action52]

The thing is, no one would ever have to abandon the challenge if they didn't want to. I personally would almost never abandon a challenge--but if I saw a Railgun I would think about it. It's not the same as coming across a weapon that doesn't fit your build, either, because even if a gun goes against your build you can still try it out.

Personally, I vote yes, if there is a vote on this. Like I said, I probably would never use it, but then again I've hardly ever used Explore Mode in Nethack either. And I see no problem with letting other people doing it.

I would even say let people keep their mortems. Just have a message saying "This marine was an Angel of ____, but welched out on it like a worthless coward!" or something like that. And your score would still be recorded as a standard game, but cut in half. And of course you would receive no medals or badges, except maybe the ones they got before abandoning the challenge.

[Tavana]

When you play this game there are a few things you should know:

• You get to choose your name.
• You get to choose your traits.
• You get to choose your actions.
• You get to live with what the Random Number Generator give you.
• If you choose not to live with what the Random Number Generator gives you, you get to die.

Until such time as there is a Ghost Mode, where you get to live on after death, attempting things you've never attempted as long as you don't delve deeper or see things you've never seen before in game - abandoning challenges will not happen.

This "Ghost Mode" to me is the best compromise between those who want a Wizard Mode and those who want to be brutally beaten by the Random Number Generator and love to take it like a man.

My specifications for it would be:

• You cannot go down a level unless you have been down to that level on the specific difficulty level in that game type (Normal, AoMr, AoB, etc)
• Attempts to go deeper that allowed would simply give a message like: "Your body cannot sustain itself and falls apart."
• Normal items will spawn. Unique or exotics will only spawn if they are on the list of items that you've acquired before.
• Special levels cease to spawn.
• Only activated by death. You MUST die to start this mode.(On level 12 he rose from the dead!)
• You must have at least five attempts of that particular mode to activate this mode. Both death and completions are counted towards this total. Quitting is not.
• If you're in a challenge mode, upon activation you are asked if you want to continue with your challenge. If you decline, rules become normal, difficultly stays the same.
• You can die as normal. Upon each death you are asked if you want to continue playing. Each death is recorded in the mortem. (On level 15 he died 4 times.)
• Your score is set to zero. You cannot acquire any badges.
• For the purposes of the player data screen, your first death is added to the total, and all kills leading up to that first death. Anything beyond it does not count to your player.

While this would take a lot more coding to put in to place, it seems to me that it would be a whole hell of a lot more likely to get put into the game, as it would actually advance it. The option to abandon a challenge doesn't really give the game anything.

[thelaptop]

Personally, I think anything that transcends death seems to defeat the purpose of the rogue-like.  Even if one does transcend death via the Ghost Mode, sufficient restrictions should be in place that make sure it is more enticing to play it "like a man" instead of wimping out into Ghost mode.  For instance, restrict the size of the backpack (ghosts have low carrying capacity), or make the body gibb-able (Mancubi attacks as cause of death might prevent respawning), drop all items in backpack all over the floor (further restriction of what "godly" items you have to use).

I don't see a need to make a Ghost take damage normally nor gain levels/traits -- they are ethereal and bullets and anything fly through them harmlessly.

All these come from the fact that DoomRL is a coffee-break rogue-like -- gameplay is already short enough that all that extra exploration is not going to be of much use in the long run.