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Author Topic: Idea: Ranks based on player deaths  (Read 3631 times)

DooMBringer

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Idea: Ranks based on player deaths
« on: May 05, 2010, 07:25 »

This game shines among other roguelikes. It combines accessibility with challenge, creating fun and rewarding experience. But the detailed statistics (medals, ranks, etc.) are things that keep people coming back to this game. We have statistics/badges/medals based on kills (quantity and method), time taken (real-time and turn based) and special levels, jet none is based on player death.

In roguelike death of Player Character is quite common outcome of a game, often caused by random nature of this genre that can be frustrating. Giving ranks based on number of deaths/suicides of PC would decrease frustration (specially among new players), as even death of a character wouldn’t be considered as failure.
Also dying in some situations could be considered as achievement and also rewarded.

Because of this I give idea to consider: Deaths based ranks.
As other ranks it could be based on two factors:
- number of deaths/suicides
- number of nuked levels (excluding AoRA and AoP, on higher ranks replaced by number of games where player nuked both Cyberdemon AND JC)

Name of this rank could an adjective, e.g.:

Ill-omened
Fated
Cursed
Marked by Death
Condamned
Unredeemed
Damned
Doomed,

added in front of old ranks.
Example: Cursed Cacodemon Corporal
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thelaptop

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Re: Idea: Ranks based on player deaths
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2010, 18:11 »

* thelaptop watches many ITYTD runs ending with death on Phobos Level 1

But seriously speaking, I'm not sure if it is nice to have the number of deaths as a ranking system.  On the one hand we celebrate the death of the marine ("hurrah for the next man to die!"), yet on the other hand it does sound a little painful to reveal the amount of deaths taken to achieve certain goals.  For instance, if one were a Doomed Arch-Vile Colonel, it wouldn't be half as bad as Condemned Imp Private FC.

We already have a record of deaths in the form of the mortem -- each mortem has a summary of all the wins and deaths (including types of) at the very end of it all.  I think numbers mean more than any word rank can do, and I suppose that leaving the number of deaths as numbers might do more justice than to try and qualify it with some rank.
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Silhar

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Re: Idea: Ranks based on player deaths
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2010, 06:08 »

Agreed with TheLaptop. The goal of ranks is to motivate the player to play the game further and achieve more, not to show him his amazing lack of skills.

ParaSait

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Re: Idea: Ranks based on player deaths
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2010, 05:58 »

... And dying is @#$&ing frustrating enough already.. Let's just leave it like it was :D
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DooMBringer

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Re: Idea: Ranks based on player deaths
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2010, 14:44 »

Agreed with TheLaptop. The goal of ranks is to motivate the player to play the game further and achieve more, not to show him his amazing lack of skills.

... And dying is @#$&ing frustrating enough already.. Let's just leave it like it was :D

That is the point. Dying is frustrating and can demotivate players from achieving more. By adding "death ranks" you also add reason to death counter and some flavor.
I also do not agree that player death shows lack of skills. It is often caused by random nature of this game - the source of frustration.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 14:46 by DooMBringer »
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thelaptop

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Re: Idea: Ranks based on player deaths
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2010, 18:33 »

That is the point. Dying is frustrating and can demotivate players from achieving more. By adding "death ranks" you also add reason to death counter and some flavor.

So you are saying that we should highlight the statistic that shows literally the number of unsuccessful runs to the player to motivate them to play more, in spite of the fact that dying is frustrating and can be demotivating?  I fail to see the logic here.

I also do not agree that player death shows lack of skills. It is often caused by random nature of this game - the source of frustration.
My point is that premature termination of runs is terrible enough, why do we need to highlight these flaws of the player?  You claim that most of the deaths are caused by the random nature of the game -- how often this is so, particularly in the early stages where you are more likely to be less skilled?  From the perspective of a new player, he/she starts playing the game, dies a few times without knowing better, finally gains some rank based on kills and achievements, looks back at a rank that basically screams something to the effect of "you have died a hell lot of times lol" -- do you think this new player is going to continue to play and proudly show the rank?

My point is not to do away with the death statistic -- my point is there is really no need to glorify it.  I don't believe we have good enough statistics on what is considered a nice average number of deaths as correlated to the other achievements, which makes the whole system very contrived and without positive merit.

Yes, one can add all kinds of named ranking structures to any statistic available in the game, but is it always that necessary to do so?  Named ranking structures are meaningful in the form of clustering information -- and in my first post on this topic I've already pointed out that we have an excellent system that puts the deaths into perspective, a more respectable demonstration of the data as opposed to a single phrase that hides the intricacies of how the death was done (through carelessness, heroic death from demons etc) that renders the need for a clustering system as put forth in the named ranking structure unnecessary and potentially misleading.
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UnderAPaleGreySky

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Re: Idea: Ranks based on player deaths
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2010, 23:21 »

Not to mention players who play extensively on UV/N!. For instance, my average mortem looks like this:

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (v.0.9.9.1) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 David, level 2 Cyberdemon Br. General, killed by a former human
 on level 2 of the Phobos base.
 He survived 2272 turns and scored 12220 points.
 He played for 56 seconds.
 He opposed the Nightmare!

 He killed 21 out of 45 hellspawn. (46%)
 He was an Angel of Max Carnage!


-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  None

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  #............#..^...0#.........#.#...........#.........#...
  #............#.......#.........#.#..........^/.........#...
  #............#.......#.........#.#...........#.........#...
  #............#.......#0........#.+...........#h........####
  #...........c#.......#.........#.#..=........#.........#...
  #............#.......#.........#..=..=.......#.........#+##
  #............#.......h....X...hh.==.=%>......#h........#...
  #............#......h#####/#######===..^.....#s...h....#h..
  #............+.......#.}||[}.....#.==........#..h......#...
  ##########+###########..|}....%.%#...\.......#.........#..0
  #.................hhh#.........../...........#i.h......#...
  #......0..........h.h#%.\........#...........#.........#h..
  #..................hh#.}.........#...h......./.......0.#h..
  #....................#...........#...........#.........#...
  #....................#...........#........\..#.........#...
  #....................#...........#...........#.........#...
  #.......}............#...........#........0..+.........+...
  #...............0....#...........#...........#.........#...
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/50   Experience 750/2
  ToHit Ranged +12  ToHit Melee +12  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +0

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

    Tough as nails   (Level 2)

  TaN->TaN->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   green armor [1/1] (38%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   shotgun (8d3) [1/1]
    [c] [ Boots      ]   nothing
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   nothing

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] shotgun shell (x50)
    [b] shotgun shell (x49)
    [c] small med-pack
    [d] small med-pack
    [e] small med-pack
    [f] small med-pack

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    9 former humans
    5 former sergeants
    1 former captain
    4 imps
    1 demon
    1 lost soul

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he finally was killed by a former human.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 Fire -- Choose target...   The former sergeant dies.
 You reload the shotgun with shotgun shell.
 Fire -- Choose target...   The former captain dies.
 You reload the shotgun with shotgun shell. The former human fires! You are
 hit!
 Fire -- Choose target...   The former human dies.
 You reload the shotgun with shotgun shell. The former human fires! You are
 hit!
 Fire -- Choose target...   The former human dies.
 You reload the shotgun with shotgun shell.
 Fire -- Choose target...   The imp dies.
 You reload the shotgun with shotgun shell.
 There is a chaingun (1d6)x4 [40/40] lying here.
 There is shotgun shell (x30) lying here.
 You found 30 of shotgun shell.

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 Before him 1551 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 1284 of those were killed.
 3 of those were killed by something unknown.
 111 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 49 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 Some rumours though, say that the Cyberdemon was killed already!
 Is he immortal? 104 souls claim to have killed him...
 24 sacrificed itself for the good of mankind.
 71 killed the bastard and survived.
 9 showed that it can outsmart hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Note the amount of dead marines. A very large portion of those came from platinum/diamond hunting. Being given a negative rank, which "add reason to death counter and some flavor", purely because of these sorts of deaths, seems somewhat unfair to such players, to be honest.
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DooMBringer

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Re: Idea: Ranks based on player deaths
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2010, 05:22 »

All right, forget about it.
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