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[Game Hunter]

Picking up this thread where it left off, particularly the last two replies. Since I was away when those went up, I never got the chance to reply myself.

First of all, I think that the two rapidfire traits (MAc and MCa) SHOULD be more powerful than the other master traits. For starters, they don't include any defensive traits and they block TaN. Also, I think it makes sense that rapidfire weapons should be stronger than shotguns or pistols. They are in real life, aren't they? And I think it works out to a nice balance--rapidfire weapons are straightforward and (relatively) easy to win with. Shotguns are great in the early game, then gradually become less and less powerful versus the enemies you face... but they have a strategic value that can make up for this if you get the right traits and play to the weapons' strengths. Pistols are the hardest ranged weapons, but you can do very cool stuff with them if you pour the right traits into them.

The only way I would buy that some master traits should be better than others is to change the minimum number of traits required for those traits. Similarly, there could also be mini-master traits that only take level 5/6 before you can use them. If MAc is meant to be the best master trait, it should probably also require Juggler or a third SoB, so that it takes longer to reap the benefits.

First of all, I think most people agree that Int is way better than MCa, especially now that enemy AI has improved. They should probably switch the two--making Int a master trait that includes both levels 1 and 2 of Int, and Cateye a 2-level advanced trait that gives you one more square of visibility per level. Most of the time MCa isn't worth the trouble, especially since it blocks off other traits.

I gotta say, I really like this idea. As much as people don't bother with Intx2 much, it's an extremely useful trait that is typically "blocked" because you need to expend two or three points that are often unwanted. (It's in the same vein that some people hate needing SM for shotgun master traits, 'cause it and Rel are unnecessary with a combat shotty or shotty/Jug combo.) I would be tempted to say that Cateye as an adv trait should only require EEx1 (and maybe make Intuition (MIn) require THx1, Catx2 instead): otherwise we'll end up in the same position Intuition is in now. I can tell you right now that an adv Cateye would make pistol runs much more doable in comparison to other weapon runs.

Lower the plasma rifle's accuracy to +0, and raise the chaingun to +2. This would make an unmodded chaingun just good enough that if you had SoB/Triggerhappy and no EE, it would at least outclass the combat shotgun as a general purpose weapon. And the plasma rifle would really suffer without double agility mods (you might even want triple). Combined with the lack of guaranteed agility mods, this means you could actually have a tough time later on.

Erm...chaingun already has +2 to-hit. In other words, what you're suggesting is just a nerf on the plasma rifle (and, subsequently, a nerf on commandos as well, though that can be rectified through other means) that isn't particularly necessary. The plasma rifle has enough problems, namely: it eats ammo like crazy, it's difficult to maintain a constant supply of said ammo if you rely on it, and +2 to-hit is already pretty lousy. +0 is gonna make it nigh-unusable unless you have at least TWO levels of EE. In short, nerfing a weapon to accommodate MAc isn't the way to go about doing this.

Personaly if you ask me though, Ammochain would be fine even if you'd limit it just to chaingun/minigun but just buffing the whizkid even more. Chaingun and minigun that would be modded to hell and back would still make the ammochain amazingly efficient. The main problem with ammochain seems to be the power of the plasmagun that is given the unlimited ammo afterall..

This sounds like a nice way to balance it out: Ammochain provides infinite ammo for chainguns (and any potential exotics and uniques that fit in the category), and allows one extra mod on them per level of WK (meaning you'd get 4 at MAc because of WKx1, while WKx2 would put it up to 7). The plasma rifle is powerful not because it has more shots or slightly more damage, it is powerful because of the piercing effect plasma has on tough enemies. Seven possible mods means that P3T3A1 is possible, and would pretty much allow for what MAc does already, the only difference being you need to find that many mods. I like it: it doesn't mean you'll never use the plasma rifle, either.  Sometimes you need that piercing damage (read: Revenants), and an overloaded spray against Cybie couldn't hurt.

[UltimateChaos]

I find it hard enough to get the agility mods to make AmmoChain viable in N! anyway.  People talk about getting the Barons to destroy the side vaults, and I'm finding it a lot harder in practice.  The most reliable way to get them is having explosives, which requires clearing Hell's Arena first.  Without agi mods, it isn't more powerful than the other ones.

Switching Cateye and Int2 is an interesting idea.  Personally, I'd love to see it =D. 

[ekiM]

Making MAc block HR instead of SoG seems like a reasonable nerf. No defense for you!

[UltimateChaos]

Making MAc block HR instead of SoG seems like a reasonable nerf. No defense for you!

I'm actually VERY in favor of doing this.  Why on earth is SoG blocked in MAc anyway?  Absolutely no reason, and if we're looking to nerf MAc, HR is a good bet.  It also fits the spirit of the master trait, since chaingunners aren't all about running around anyway.  Also, show me someone who is skilled at dodging while wielding a chaingun.  I can't even think of any movies where someone has dodged *anything* while firing a chaingun.

[Game Hunter]

So, let's talk shotguns.

Shotgun
Damage: 8d3 (drop-off of 7%/tile)
Fire time: 1.0sec
Reload time: 1.4sec
Clip size: 1

Combat Shotgun
Damage: 7d3 (drop-off of 5%/tile)
Fire time: 1.0sec
Reload time: 0.7sec per shell(0.2sec for pumping)
Clip size: 5
Alternate reload: Reloads entire clip at once (total time for all shells needed is used)

Double Shotgun
Damage: 8d3x3 (drop-off of 10%/tile, my bad Locke)
Fire time: 1.0sec
Reload time: 2.0sec
Clip size: 2 (shoots two at once)
Alternate fire: Single shot for 8d3 damage, 1.0sec fire
Alternate reload: Single reload at 2.0sec (it's bugged, heh)

These are pulled from the wiki and I don't see any glaring flaws. In terms of reloading time and clip size, combat shotgun wins hands down. The double shotgun wins on, at the very least, point-blank damage, but let's look at the comparison for any expected range (assumes that 100% damage is dealt from one tile away):

Damage after X tiles
Weapon	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
Shotgun	16	14.88	13.76	12.64	11.52	10.4	9.28	8.16	7.04	5.92
Combat Shotgun	14	13.3	12.6	11.9	11.2	10.5	9.8	9.1	8.4	7.7
Double Shotgun	48	43.2	38.4	33.6	28.8	24	19.2	14.4	9.6	4.8

For the double's damage, divide by two in order to have a full damage-per-shell analysis. After six tiles (near the edge of typical vision) the damage is about the same for all, and by the time you're radar-shooting the combat shotgun is the obvious winner. Remarkably, there is no point that the shotgun is a better gun.

In terms of damage, the combat wins from afar and the double wins up-close. Even if you wanted to conserve ammo up-close, the double has a single shot that acts JUST like the normal shotgun (besides drop-off rate, which is an insignificant 3/6% at such a distance). The combat shotgun reloads twice as fast as the shotgun, and (per shell) the double reloads ~1.5 times as fast. It's embarrassing, really.

Now, I don't mind the double shotgun the way it is: it should obviously outclass its single-shot predecessor when you're really close to the enemy.  The combat shotgun, on the other hand, manages to take up every other possible place for the shotgun (radar-shooting, corner-shooting, generally far shots) and does so at roughly half the reloading time. Something must be done.

Suggestions:
- As it is right now, I wouldn't mind seeing the combat's damage nerfed a little. Even before you get a double shotgun (assuming you even do), it's not losing out all that much anyway: reducing the total output but decreasing the drop-off rate would turn the weapon into one made primarily for long-range tactical maneuvers.
- The normal shotgun's reloading time could be decreased, or the combat shotgun's time increased. It doesn't make sense to me, as a gamer, that the combat shotgun, which already has an advantage over the one-shelled version due to a greater clip size, also manages to reload much faster.
- Let agi/bulk mods increase the shotgun's clip size by one regardless. This would let the shotgun fire twice in succession (no pumping) as a sort of lesser assault shotgun. Not a perfect solution, although agi mods are guaranteed for HA/Court rushers. Alternatively, allow WK to tinker with parts of another shotgun and add it to your current one for the same upgrade (allow 1/2 guns grafted on for 2/3 clip size).

Tell me what you think, suggest your own ideas, etc. It just bothers me that this weapon has practically no use except as a stepping stone: even the chaingun is important enough when you have problems collecting cells for your plasma rifle (or can't manage to find a commando).

[Sirdec]

Ammochain should block and not require Whizkid. I see more a Doomguy with Brute, Thought as Nails and TriggerHappy shooting like a maniac, not the nerdy Doomguy with glasses of Whizkid.

[Kamikaze14]

I think the logic behind whizkid is that the doomguy invents a way to not need ammo.  Also, its prerequisite (finesse) fits the concept perfectly.