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Author Topic: Monster reaction to noise  (Read 8288 times)

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Monster reaction to noise
« on: September 19, 2010, 20:47 »

Been throwing around this idea in the "common abuses" thread, but I feel like it could use its own thread so I/we can flesh it out more.

The basics:

- Everything that currently causes noise in the game (firing a gun, explosions, enemy deaths, etc) will produce an actual noise, concentrated at the source of said noise, that monsters can take notice of
--- Noise will dissipate from the source radially, with walls/doors acting as dampeners
- Monsters that notice the noise will change their actions to move toward the source for a period of time and will only return to normal if:
--- They appear at the source without any change in priorities (ie, bored)
--- Time runs out (ie, forget)
--- They cannot reach the source from their current position (ie, annoyed)
- Monsters only react to the most recent noise (that is, they will change their movement if they hear something else)
- Movement toward the source is only specified by a direction and magnitude, so the exact location is unknown (meaning they won't take a point-to-point route, only try to "go left", etc)

That said, there are a lot of consequences for these basic rules. The first, and most important, is that when you start to attack things, all of a sudden a lot of enemies will try to find you out. Pre-fight tactics would then change significantly, as you would try to find a place where enemies couldn't swarm on you. At the same time, you could also throw enemies off by creating a noise in one room and running into another, then picking them off from a safe location as they approach. There are also some gray-areas (Should your yelling while crossing acid/lava create noise? Should the first barrel explosion take precedent over any chained explosions?) that ought to be figured out.

As I mentioned in the previous thread, this would also have uses for melee users. Throwing a knife against a wall would cause a noise at the wall and lure enemies there, presumably while you prepare at a melee distance. Chainsaws create tons of noise and, were this implemented, could have a "revving" alternate fire for the sole purpose of creating noise. I'd like to think noise reactions can be a decent replacement for gift-dropping, and so is part of the reason I suggest it.

With the addition of noise, we can also begin to create items and equipment that reduce or even eliminate noise. The most obvious is a "silence" mod that reduces the amount of noise coming from a weapon, and absorb noise in your direction (like a wall) if used on armor/boots. In the consumable department, "phonon canceler" can remove all noise from the level for a period of time (or in a radius, though that may get complicated). Some weapons will be less noisy than others (laser rifle and blaster would be quieter than bullets or raw plasma, shotguns are awfully loud) and some enemies may be more susceptible to noise than others (or just plain deaf).

Sure, maybe it's complicated, but in a game whose original used noise in a very important way, I can't imagine keeping reactions to noise out of DoomRL forever. I CAN imagine it being a very time-consuming project, however, so simply knowing it has the potential to be "in the works" would be news enough for me.
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Tavana

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Re: Monster reaction to noise
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2010, 03:55 »

Rather than simply reacting to ONLY the most recent noise, I think there should be a rank in importance of noises for each creature. For example:
Pistol: +2 importance
Shotgun: +5 importance
Teleporter: +7 importance
Rocket Launcher: +10 importance
Creature of different type dying: +14 importance
Creature of same type dying: +15 importance
BFG: +20 importance

...just to give an idea. Basically, the higher the threat the noise is, the more likely the monster is to check it out. Choosing between a barrel moving noise and a BFG noise? Guess what I'd choose to concentrate on.

In fact, I'd even say that there could be a buffer with each and every noise heard recently for each creature. Hear me out on this: You hear a pistol shot (+X importance), you head towards it. For every step, the importance to you drops (to zero) until you decide that whatever did it would have moved on already (item is removed from the buffer). Then you hear a shotgun blast (+Y importance), and while heading towards it you hear a pistol shot (+X importance). Each creature type may have a different decay of importance for each sound (and I can see some mods really working with this) so you might follow the shotgun sound, but eventually that nagging pistol shot you heard earlier could be a lot more important.

Perhaps a better reason for the buffer idea is this: Hearing that shotgun blast might not be terribly important since you're investigating someone with a rocket launcher, but when you get to around where you heard the rocket explode you're going to want to check out the shotgun's sound since the rocket is a dead end.

We could break it down even further: Some enemies are stupid. No buffer. Simply check the importance of a new noise event against the importance of the noise being investigated. If it's higher - that's what we check. If it's lower, we ignore it. Some enemies are smart - they get a buffer system. Baron's of Hell and ArchViles just got that much meaner. My target dissapeared!?! Why YES I did hear something like someone teleporting nearby me. Let's check it out!

My main problem with this is that without proper care in coding, it could become even worse than the exploit that we're attempting to replace.

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Re: Monster reaction to noise
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2010, 04:42 »

I must remind everyone that sound decays inversely over distance and not inverse-squaredly.

Just thought I should put this here in case we forgot how the Physics work...
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Re: Monster reaction to noise
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2010, 05:40 »

If you can precisely determine the location of the sound source in the maze, then you have sonic locator or veeery advanced hearing. I suppose that to addition to all being said there should be

a) Area of sound. While some demons have unnatural powers and can calculate the exact square of the sound source, the rest should head to a circle from the sound location. Former humans, having the worst hearing, can only determine was it from the left or from the right side of the map.

b) Level's acoustic level. While in the cave you can precisely hear from where sound is coming, in the maze in could be definitely problematic. Acoustic level could be a complicated calculation that depends from the placement of walls and open space size, or dependent from the level type. If it's big then you can't precisely find the source of the sound, resulting in big variety of places to search (maze level). If it's low, you can almost "see" the location of the sound (caves or hell city).
   
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Re: Monster reaction to noise
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2010, 06:38 »

This would be awesome. You have my vote for this.
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Re: Monster reaction to noise
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2010, 11:11 »

Hmm, it's too noisy to hear anything in most of the levels of the base because of that darn loud music....
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Re: Monster reaction to noise
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2010, 11:30 »

I'd say "no".
This way monsters will notice you before they even see you, and levels will basically consist of standing in a position, making some noise, killing the waves of curious monsters, go somewhere else and repeat it until all is cleared.
Now at least you have to clear out room per room, like Doom is supposed to be played.

EDIT: Also it'll be even more unfair for the player if he's playing with no sound. :|
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 11:31 by Mrazerty »
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Re: Monster reaction to noise
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2010, 11:38 »

I'd say "no".
This way monsters will notice you before they even see you, and levels will basically consist of standing in a position, making some noise, killing the waves of curious monsters, go somewhere else and repeat it until all is cleared.
Now at least you have to clear out room per room, like Doom is supposed to be played.

EDIT: Also it'll be even more unfair for the player if he's playing with no sound. :|

I mostly agree with this, but the no-sound player won't be adversely affected.  He'll know when he's doing something that makes noise, he doesn't need to hear it.
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Re: Monster reaction to noise
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2010, 11:49 »

Yeah I know but I mean playing with sound is an unfair advantage already, if monsters would be able to hear too it'd be pretty fsckd up.
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Re: Monster reaction to noise
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2010, 13:05 »

...levels will basically consist of standing in a position, making some noise, killing the waves of curious monsters, go somewhere else and repeat it until all is cleared.
Now at least you have to clear out room per room, like Doom is supposed to be played.
I'm not sure what Doom you played, but I certainly remember using the fact that monsters will approach after you've shot your weapon (ie, the noise factor), then waiting at the side of the wall for them to come. This was almost mandatory in early levels when you lacked the big guns and/or ammo and the number of enemies were too great to handle simultaneously (particularly tons of formers with their insta-hits). The fact that you didn't have to do it often was due to either most enemies tracking you regardless or most projectiles were easily dodged.

Though, in spite of that, you do have a point. I'd rather not turn levels into a grind of luring and killing in neat lines. This, I imagine, is fixable via proper balance: only the noisiest sources would really make enemies come a good distance from their original location, like explosions and BFG blasts. Ranking the projectile weapons, I'd go: pistol, chaingun, combat shotgun, plasma rifle, shotgun, double shotgun, rocket launcher (explosion only). This is rough, but the pistol may have as little a radius as 3-4 tiles, and the loudness can go from there.

As potentially exploitable as it sounds, it's less of an exploit than the "enemies tends toward the center" that happens without a noise factor. Even if the AI for that is unchanged, I imagine there will end up a very little chance of it ever becoming useful when enemies are constantly responding to weapon fire and the dying breaths of their brethren. That noise could affect enemies would actually allow for the AI programming to stay near their spawning locations, rather than seeking an enemy they can't see or hear.

Rather than simply reacting to ONLY the most recent noise, I think there should be a rank in importance of noises for each creature....Basically, the higher the threat the noise is, the more likely the monster is to check it out. Choosing between a barrel moving noise and a BFG noise? Guess what I'd choose to concentrate on.

In fact, I'd even say that there could be a buffer with each and every noise heard recently for each creature. Hear me out on this: You hear a pistol shot (+X importance), you head towards it. For every step, the importance to you drops (to zero) until you decide that whatever did it would have moved on already (item is removed from the buffer). Then you hear a shotgun blast (+Y importance), and while heading towards it you hear a pistol shot (+X importance). Each creature type may have a different decay of importance for each sound (and I can see some mods really working with this) so you might follow the shotgun sound, but eventually that nagging pistol shot you heard earlier could be a lot more important.

Perhaps a better reason for the buffer idea is this: Hearing that shotgun blast might not be terribly important since you're investigating someone with a rocket launcher, but when you get to around where you heard the rocket explode you're going to want to check out the shotgun's sound since the rocket is a dead end.

We could break it down even further: Some enemies are stupid. No buffer. Simply check the importance of a new noise event against the importance of the noise being investigated. If it's higher - that's what we check. If it's lower, we ignore it. Some enemies are smart - they get a buffer system. Baron's of Hell and ArchViles just got that much meaner. My target dissapeared!?! Why YES I did hear something like someone teleporting nearby me. Let's check it out!
The buffer sounds like a great idea. I would, however, categorize most monsters in the "stupid" category, leaving (potentially) Barons/HKs, Arch-Viles, and formers as the intelligentsia. Of these, I'd rank Viles as smartest, then Barons, commandos, HKs, then the other formers (probably captain/sergeant/human, if they aren't all equal). It leaves some actual tactical differences aside from their somewhat predictable pathings. We could, in fact, go as far as to say that intelligent monsters can lead stupid but follower-type monsters (demons and lost souls come to mind, and imps specifically would follow HKs and Barons).

Mind you, if the enemy actually spots you, all of this additional noise pathing goes out the window and they follow their typical AI. The biggest difference in an actual battle is that you'll notice more monsters showing up in the middle, rather than being able to lure one enemy at a time (which is the case sometimes). This is why I don't consider it inherently exploitable, because in the end this is just a way for monsters to be more aggressive (creating the double possibilities for abuse on both parties).

Level's acoustic level. While in the cave you can precisely hear from where sound is coming, in the maze in could be definitely problematic. Acoustic level could be a complicated calculation that depends from the placement of walls and open space size, or dependent from the level type. If it's big then you can't precisely find the source of the sound, resulting in big variety of places to search (maze level). If it's low, you can almost "see" the location of the sound (caves or hell city).
Acoustics of a particular area are a nice little nuance that I'd love to see. It makes caves and arenas more deadly, but also somewhat easier (given you have some decent cover). Arenas, for instance, tend to contain a number of barrels, any of which can easily create a noisy diversion while you run away from it.
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ZZ

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Re: Monster reaction to noise
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2010, 14:48 »

I would, however, categorize most monsters in the "stupid" category, leaving (potentially) Barons/HKs, Arch-Viles, and formers as the intelligentsia. Of these, I'd rank Viles as smartest, then Barons, commandos, HKs, then the other formers (probably captain/sergeant/human, if they aren't all equal).
I supposed that formers went crazy because of the demons so they should not be too smart. Also, spiders and revenants do not seem to be too stupid.
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Re: Monster reaction to noise
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2010, 15:08 »

I supposed that formers went crazy because of the demons so they should not be too smart. Also, spiders and revenants do not seem to be too stupid.

Spiders in the original game were a walking brain afterall.. They should have some smartness factor.
Revenants are basicly just resurrected skeletons, you can't expect much from them.

I personaly have some mixmatched feelings about this system. In the otherhand it does sound like it could be intresting, but on the other hand it just seems.. Bit odd. Though I would love some changes to the enemy AI and this could provide it, I feel this could imbalance some builds. For exsample this could give unwanted buffs for about all builds. Shotguns get buff with having to scout less, ammochain and pistols get the buff off making the least noise. Rocket launcher fan? oh boy.. Then this leaves meelee to be a question mark. Might make it easier on the early levels, but in the few last levels, specialy with archviles beeing on the smart list, this would make some serious trouble for the player if they would accidently make too much noise as you know, a single vile can end your AoB run if you don't have zerk going when meeting it.
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Re: Monster reaction to noise
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2010, 16:09 »

I'm not sure what Doom you played, but I certainly remember using the fact that monsters will approach after you've shot your weapon (ie, the noise factor), then waiting at the side of the wall for them to come.
True but I'm not talking about how Doom technically worked here, I'm talking about how it's played. In Doom you don't just say "yo I'm here!" and wait for the monsters to come check you out, it's pretty much the opposite.
Dunno, I've a very negative feeling bout this suggestion. It'd just make DoomRL plain boring in most situations.

EDIT: Also, the monster's limited line of sight is there for a reason right?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 16:12 by Mrazerty »
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Re: Monster reaction to noise
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2010, 19:46 »

The line of sight also brings the intresting question of cateye, considering it would get hell of a nerf here.
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Re: Monster reaction to noise
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2010, 20:46 »

I think I might have asked that somewhere, but let me ask it here again:

Is the AI for the monsters hard coded or is it in separate modules that can be compiled in via LUA?  If the latter, maybe we can even open up the monster AI for experimentation to get behaviour as close to that of vanilla Doom.
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