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Author Topic: Pain filled lessons from DoomRL, a newbie's survival guide.  (Read 12156 times)

C4Cypher

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I'd figured I'd make my first post to the forums, I really appreciate Thomas's (un)Official Strategy guide, it has really helped getting me up to speed. I'd figured I'd write down a few things that were fresh in my mind, and I may be giving bad advice, so feel free to pick it apart.

Without further ado I give you:

Quote

Pain filled lessons from DoomRL, a newbie's survival guide.
by C4Cypher

I'm a newbie to roguelikes, but for some reason I can't stop playing DoomRL … I've cleared 'I'm Too Young To Die' several times, but when I begin to try 'Hey, Not Too Rough' I get my ass handed to me. The higher difficulties require a little more than the obvious tactics. I'm keeping a list of the painful lessons I've learned.

1. Hoard.  No matter how much inventory space you have, you will often have need of more at times. First thing you should do when entering a level is find a safe place to stash the stuff you don't immediately need. 'Safe place' is relative but should be enclosed by doors and far from things that cause splash damage. If you can't find such a place, hold on to your stuff until you do. The most preferable place for this stash is near the exit if you can find it early in your exploration. Once you clear out a level, take stock of your available inventory, stashes included, and determine what is best to carry forward with. (see below concerning ammunition, much less will go to waste this way) Keep in mind that former humans of all kinds, Hell Knights and Barons can pick up and use medkits, teleporters and armor that you leave lying around, so if you leave a stash somewhere, watch the doors near it to make sure something isn't going to stumble into it.

2. Avoid bad situations and look for a better tactical angle.  Never assume that you can luck out.  You can take on bad odds, but you need to do so carefully, cautiously, and always, ALWAYS have an exit plan, be it a homing teleport or a nearby door you can close.  If a problem looks ugly, you can almost always find an alternative route, or make one.  This makes the rocket launcher useful to carry almost always, just for destroying walls, even if you don't use it in combat.

3. Know what ammunition is common and at which points in the game.  I love pistol builds, even though they're not the simplest to play … the downside is that you generally end up hurting for pistol ammunition the deeper you go, as human captains become less common, and former humans almost non-existent.  There is one opportunity in the game to get something that helps carrying ammunition, it's incredibly dangerous, and difficult to survive, but prepare for it, be ready when you find the stairs for it, for this humble item is well worth the effort later down the road for precisely this reason.

4. Try to plan to keep one effective weapon that does decent/mild damage, good accuracy (and is not a shotgun) … you find the Unique weapon that would make your life so much easier, but it's surrounded by barrels, and a baron of hell is sitting on top of it, … crap.  Have something you can carefully peck away at something ugly with, without spraying the dangerous things around it. Those rare, incredibly valuable items can mean the difference.

5. Nothing is worth dying for. … you find the Unique weapon that would make your life so much easier, but it's surrounded by Mancubi and Arch-villes … yes, plural.  Shit … one step anywhere near that situation and it gets ugly … and it's hard to get a shot at the Arch-Villes without eating more rockets than a fireworks display on the Fourth of July.  That special thing is worth going for, but not worth giving up so many health packs and armor that you'd find surviving the subsequent levels impossible to survive, even with the nice gear.  Choose wisely as to the cost of pursuing something dangerous.

6. Know what is inside special levels before you blunder into them.  I'm not suggesting you spoil the levels if you don't want to, but do know that you'll find out the hard way which levels are impossible to overcome, much less survive unless you're a one-man army, or using a specific build, sometimes it's better to bypass the special opportunity, if you want to meet the big guy at the end.

7. If you see something that says 'handle with care' … don't go pushing any shiny red buttons, especially if it's blue, and might be confused for a teleport.

8. Don't waste mods, you may or may not be a whizkid, but plan your mods almost with the same level of care as you would your build. Your mods are part of your build even, and while you can't predict which mods you will get, know what mods you really need for your weapons. I avoid putting mods on armor, unless I've got spare armor to switch out. I prefer boots first for agility, … just have a good idea as to which mods give the most benefits for each weapon, which mods will be overshadowed by your traits, and which mods you NEED for your build to work better.  Oh, a bulk mod on a BFG is never a bad idea, trust me.

9. Mancubi are unpredictable … they can be very easy one moment, but can still kill you very quickly if you get yourself into a bad situation.  I loathe the things, and I die to them almost more than anything else (baron's even) … handle with care, even if you still can usually kill them before they get a shot off.

10. Kill Arch-Villes with great prejudice.  Nothing else should be higher on your target priority list, and unless a Unique or a really, really good Exotic is at stake, no collateral damage is too much until you've wiped this particular evil off the map.  Fighting an Arch-Ville only to find that Mancubi that you just killed resurrect right behind you (did I mention that I hate them) … is a a bad way to die.

11. Know when to stay away from barrels, when to stay away from walls, when to seek cover and when to simply ignore everything else and pump out as much lead as you possibly can.  Splash damage against a wall will quickly negate any advantages of an active defense … Reverant rockets don't really count when it comes to staying against the walls, because they auto target, can't be dodged, just kill them fast or find cover.   Stay the hell away from Mancubi and walls when dealing with Mancubi.  Walls are not your friends when Barons are about.

12. Move barrels to improve your situation.  You can move barrels … it's dangerous to do so when enemies are about … but it can be nice to re-arrange barrels in a room to make it suitable for a stash, that or moving them so that any fire through a door you're breaching won't ignite anything behind you.

13. The combat shotgun is versatile and useful.  Even if you find something better and you're not playing a shotgun build, keep a combat shotgun handy with one stack of shotgun ammo. It's incredibly handy for dealing with weaker enemies without wasting your precious primary ammunition.

14. Know your options when you pull the trigger and your weapon goes 'click'. It takes 0.8 seconds to swap to a prepared weapon (without Juggler), but it's a hell of a lot faster than reloading, pulling a weapon from your inventory takes one second (I think) which is usually faster than reloading (Reloader and Shottyman notwithstanding). Sometimes it's just better to run like hell and take the time to reload everything before you head back into combat.  The tab key is your friend in these situations. Oh, and don't alt-reload the combat shotgun, just don't, ever, you'll feel awfully stupid because you sat there, happily loading one shell after another while a Demon chewed on you.


I'm writing this for the person who doesn't know any better, much like myself ... at the same time, any input, or more lessons people have learned would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 15:44 by C4Cypher »
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Re: Pain filled lessons from DoomRL, a newbie's survival guide.
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2010, 12:15 »

I'll make personal addenda to your comments so as to state my own experiences or simply clarify.
1. Hoard.  No matter how much inventory space you have, you will often have need of more at times. First thing you should do when entering a level is find a safe place to stash the stuff you don't immediately need. 'Safe place' is relative but should be enclosed by doors and far from things that cause splash damage. If you can't find such a place, hold on to your stuff until you do. The most preferable place for this stash is near the exit if you can find it early in your exploration. Once you clear out a level, take stock of your available inventory, stashes included, and determine what is best to carry forward with. (see below concerning ammunition, much less will go to waste this way)
Can't say I've ever bothered to make a note of this for every floor. Yes, it's good to keep something of 'safe place' in mind for special occasions, but I believe the important lesson here is to simply stock up as early as you can, as often as you can. The ratio of armor:ammunition:weapons:med-packs:other depends on your build and place in the game, which is typically something learned through experience and preference.

2. Avoid bad situations and look for a better tactical angle.  Never assume that you can luck out.  You can take on bad odds, but you need to do so carefully, cautiously, and always, ALWAYS have an exit plan, be it a homing teleport or a nearby door you can close.  If a problem looks ugly, you can almost always find an alternative route, or make one.  This makes the rocket launcher useful to carry almost always, just for destroying walls, even if you don't use it in combat. The Anti-Freak Jackal is beautiful in this capacity.
Pretty much everything that causes explosions will also destroy walls for that often-required alternate exit. RL is the common weapon of choice, with the missile launcher close behind. Anti-Freak Jackal certainly is a good unique for the job, but let's not forget the plasma shotgun, blaster, and BFG variants. Hell, even the plasma/laser rifle is capable of tearing through them: the key is that walls have ~20DR, and the only type of damage that can ever hope to pierce it is either in huge amounts (like BFG and RL) or plasma-type.

3. Know what ammunition is common and at which points in the game.  I love pistol builds, even though they're not the simplest to play … the downside is that you generally end up hurting for pistol ammunition the deeper you go, as human captains become less common, and former humans almost non-existent.  There is one opportunity in the game to get something that helps carrying ammunition, it's incredibly dangerous, and difficult to survive, but prepare for it, be ready when you find the stairs for it, for this humble item is well worth the effort later down the road for precisely this reason.
So you feeling like leaving out what this item is called? I mean, since it's implied that you can always go for it, the answer is obvious enough having played the game numerous times, but still. If you're going to spoil the Anti-Freak Jackal, I don't think it's consistent to leave them in the dark for a much more common find.

4. Try to plan to keep one effective weapon that does decent/mild damage, good accuracy (and is not a shotgun) … you find the Unique weapon that would make your life so much easier, but it's surrounded by barrels, and a baron of hell is sitting on top of it, … crap.  Have something you can carefully peck away at something ugly with, without spraying the dangerous things around it. Those rare, incredibly valuable items can mean the difference.
For sure, you can't expect to wield only shotguns, save AoSg. I can't really say that this situation is common enough to invoke a stratagem around it. In fact, this specific case is unwarranted, as uniques are indestructible in 0.9.9.1. Exotics aren't, though it's not too hard to get the Baron's attention if it's THAT useful.

5. Nothing is worth dying for. … you find the Unique weapon that would make your life so much easier, but it's surrounded by Mancubi and Arch-villes … yes, plural.  Shit … one step anywhere near that situation and it gets ugly … and it's hard to get a shot at the Arch-Villes without eating more rockets than a fireworks display on the Fourth of July.  That special thing is worth going for, but not worth giving up so many health packs and armor that you'd find surviving the subsequent levels impossible to survive, even with the nice gear.  Choose wisely as to the cost of pursuing something dangerous.
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. It's probably worth unloading a few BFG shots or a couple stacks of rockets, but anything that's going to deplete your emergency health supplies should never be considered as a worthy piece of equipment (with VERY few exceptions).

6. Know what is inside special levels before you blunder into them.  I'm not suggesting you spoil the levels if you don't want to, but do know that you'll find out the hard way which levels are impossible to overcome, much less survive unless you're a one-man army, or using a specific build, sometimes it's better to bypass the special opportunity, if you want to meet the big guy at the end.
To be clear, unknown special levels should be explored only if you feel overprepared for whatever you think might be in them. Even once you get to know them, clearing a given special level should only be considered when you are adequately prepared for what's in it.

8. Don't waste mods, you may or may not be a whizkid, but plan your mods almost with the same level of care as you would your build. Your mods are part of your build even, and while you can't predict which mods you will get, know what mods you really need for your weapons. I avoid putting mods on armor, unless I've got spare armor to switch out. I prefer boots first for agility, … just have a good idea as to which mods give the most benefits for each weapon, which mods will be overshadowed by your traits, and which mods you NEED for your build to work better.  Oh, a bulk mod on a BFG is never a bad idea, trust me.
Might as well go into some more detail on this one:
- Power goes well on just about any weapon, more important on some than others (combat shotgun, pistol)
- Agility is first used on boots, then armor. If building for a master trait that blocks EE, it can be used on rapid-fire guns just as well.
- Bulk is for BFG and armor, and RL if you don't have another use for it.
- Technical goes well on just about any weapon; really no point on armor/boots unless you're playing a specialized challenge (AoB/AoPc in particular)

In general, I don't like to carry mods around unless they're agility (which, for the first few, can be awfully important) or I am on the verge on getting WK. There's usually a place to stick them on and, if not, discarding isn't the worst thing.

9. Mancubi are unpredictable … they can be very easy one moment, but can still kill you very quickly if you get yourself into a bad situation.  I loathe the things, and I die to them almost more than anything else (baron's even) … handle with care, even if you still can usually kill them before they get a shot off.
For people who listen for monster noises, always be wary of the Mancubi grunt. They're surprisingly intelligent (albeit slow) and know how to cut corners so that they can occasionally get a surprise round on you.

10. Kill Arch-Villes with great prejudice.  Nothing else should be higher on your target priority list, and unless a Unique or a really, really good Exotic is at stake, no collateral damage is too much until you've wiped this particular evil off the map.  Fighting an Arch-Ville only to find that Mancubi that you just killed resurrect right behind you (did I mention that I hate them) … is a a bad way to die.
Arch-Viles are #1 priority, always. As a check, every time I kill one, I kill something else and wait to see if it revives. If not, great, I can advance: if so, I gotta play it cool until the next one comes into killing range. They can often be attracted by corpses, too, which can be used to your advantage.
14. Know your options when you pull the trigger and your weapon goes 'click'. I don't know how much time it takes to swap to a prepared weapon (without juggler), but it's a hell of a lot faster than reloading, pulling a weapon from your inventory takes one second (I think) which is usually faster than reloading. Sometimes it's just better to run like hell and take the time to reload everything before you head back into combat.  The tab key is your friend in these situations. Oh, and don't alt-reload the combat shotgun, just don't, ever, you'll feel awfully stupid because you sat there, happily loading one shell after another while a Demon chewed on you.
Swapping (using the "z" key) is 0.8sec, slightly faster than the 1.0sec from the inventory, and certainly much faster than most reloading times. As for the combat's alt-reload, it's the kind of thing you use when you know you're out of harm's way. Like, when the level becomes "relatively safe", or all the doors are closed and you're far away from all of them.

Good stuff. Maybe not completely comprehensive, but I'd certainly give this a link to any newbie wanting to learn the ropes without me having to explain things for a few hours.
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C4Cypher

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Re: Pain filled lessons from DoomRL, a newbie's survival guide.
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2010, 15:41 »

Thanks Game Hunter, I wasn't even thinking when I mentioned the Jackal, I avoided spoilers simply as a courtesy, not that I have a problem crawling through the wiki, spoiling myself.  I've removed the direct reference to the jackal, and I've modified the document here and the .odt copy I have ... I can attach that to the post if people would like.  I'll also be adding to this as things occur to me.  It's fun learning little tricks and things that would help in situations that you could normally plow through on ITYTD.

As far as the hoarding bit, yeah, it's subjective ... I just know that I don't need all those extra stacks of plasma or pistol ammo when clearing out a level, and I can quickly run in, grab something, use it or run out without having to bother with dropping stuff to make room. 
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Re: Pain filled lessons from DoomRL, a newbie's survival guide.
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2010, 17:39 »

I think it's very much worth mentioning this:

The AI's tactics can be turned against it, partly because the line-of-sight mechanics have irregularities that allow you to do some very odd things with bullets. Observe, internalize, and prosper.
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Re: Pain filled lessons from DoomRL, a newbie's survival guide.
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2010, 18:33 »

I think it's very much worth mentioning this:

The AI's tactics can be turned against it, partly because the line-of-sight mechanics have irregularities that allow you to do some very odd things with bullets. Observe, internalize, and prosper.
I would discourage against exploitive play like that, simply because the play style does not carry over from one version of the game to the next.  That said, playing conservatively often improves survival, unless you are gunning for YAAM/Conqueror, then you're on your own.
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Re: Pain filled lessons from DoomRL, a newbie's survival guide.
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2010, 22:59 »

Quote
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. It's probably worth unloading a few BFG shots or a couple stacks of rockets, but anything that's going to deplete your emergency health supplies should never be considered as a worthy piece of equipment (with VERY few exceptions).

1. Nano pack
2. Onyxarmor pack
3. BFG10k
4. Trigun
5. DragonSlayer
6. Jackhammer
7. Necroarmor
8. Railgun
9. Cybernetic armor
10. Blaster

Thise are the weapons I'd always sacrife over half of my inventory for just because how much you can save trouble with them.
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Re: Pain filled lessons from DoomRL, a newbie's survival guide.
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2010, 01:25 »

^ Quite a few of those are situational, which is why I wouldn't personally put them on my exceptions list (basically, if you're playing a pistol/shotgun/MAc game, of course you'll risk more to get it). DS is also removed because, let's face it, either you have the conditions necessary or you don't.

Nano/Onyx pack and Necroarmor (and Malek's Armor if it's early enough) are the only ones I'd for sure risk a game on, with the others pending my current build and ammo reserves. I might consider Trigun in any given game if I think I'll get use out of the nuking.

I would discourage against exploitive play like that, simply because the play style does not carry over from one version of the game to the next.  That said, playing conservatively often improves survival, unless you are gunning for YAAM/Conqueror, then you're on your own.
Heh, at best I'd discourage filling newbies in on exploits. (My own guide's tactics section, however, will remain comprehensive from version to version, and will change as necessary.) I can tell you right now, though, that N! would be quite impossible if not for some certain exploits, so until the game is made easier intentionally (or at least non-exploitatively) ways I plan to keep using them.
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Re: Pain filled lessons from DoomRL, a newbie's survival guide.
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2010, 14:16 »

I carefully didn't mention how to exploit the LOS mechanics :)

And of course, that's not the only exploitable mechanic. Giftdropping feels somewhere between "abuse" and "exploit" to me, partly because I think of formers as basically zombies-with-guns and so the thought of them seeking medicine is horribly jarring.
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Re: Pain filled lessons from DoomRL, a newbie's survival guide.
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2010, 13:39 »

As someone still on the lower difficulty levels of the game, I find that 90% of my deaths occur on the beginning levels of the game, either in Hell's Arena or on any of the beginning floors before it, often due to buckshot overload.

How do you guys reliably deal with stuff like former sergeants at the beginning of the game?  Their shotguns (since they can't miss, and usually inflict knockback) absolutely make life miserable on the lower floors, particularly since you don't have armor, and they often do an extremely good job of whittling my health down enough for imps (or the occasional stray demon) to make an easy kill off me.  Sure, they die pretty quickly, but then again, so can you.

Usually I wind up taking the hits when I'm still going with a pistol (hello, AoMr) and my shots in the dark don't find their targets, giving me a nasty surprise when I uncover those next floor tiles.  Obviously this isn't as much of an issue when I have a shotgun in tow, but it does still happen.

And yeah, I know it sounds like I'm hopeless, but believe me, the last time I made it past Hell's Arena was the one time I made it to Cybie.  (I was shocked, too.)  Not to mention that was on a shotty build...
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Re: Pain filled lessons from DoomRL, a newbie's survival guide.
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2010, 13:53 »

Sergeants are, in many ways, the most annoying low-tier enemy for a few reasons, including a 100% chance to hit and a rather significant knockback effect.  This is especially true on lower difficulties (before enemies start receiving greater to-hit chances), which easily makes them into the bane of any newbie player.

Typically, the best way to handle Sergeants is the same way you'd handle any opponent: kill them before they have the chance to retaliate.  Radar-shooting (ie, aiming for things outside your maximum vision) and corner-shooting (ie, aiming for things outside your blocked vision) are bulk solutions to this challenge, and is best done with a combat shotgun. If you're lacking a shotty, the next best thing is to build yourself up so that you kill most enemies the moment they enter your vision. If it's pistols, SoG should be maxed, with more points into SoB; if it's rapid-fire, SoB, Fin, and TH all come in handy.  As a last resort, keep in mind that it takes them 1.4 seconds to reload, almost always more than enough time to kill before they manage a second shot.

If Sergeants are what kills you more than anything else, it's because you aren't used to the advanced tactics of the game. Over time (and on higher difficulties) Sergeants tend to blend in with the rest of the low-tier enemies, with the exception of AoB/AoPc runs.
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Re: Pain filled lessons from DoomRL, a newbie's survival guide.
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2010, 18:27 »

Swapping (using the "z" key) is 0.8sec, slightly faster than the 1.0sec from the inventory, and certainly much faster than most reloading times.

that's not as much faster as I thought.  I don't suppose either of those times get reduced by reloader?  So if you have a few levels in Rel it could become inefficient to swap.

another reloader question - does it speed up the combat shotgun's (stationary) pump?
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Re: Pain filled lessons from DoomRL, a newbie's survival guide.
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2010, 04:27 »

I have a question. If i play shotgun build, should i use the combat or double-barreled shotgun ? I find both of them pretty good and cant decide which one is better.
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Re: Pain filled lessons from DoomRL, a newbie's survival guide.
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2010, 05:12 »

Use combat shotgun for scouting or taking out enemies which are on the edge of your LOS (or in corridors). Use double shotgun when you're close and there are many enemies (or you just need extra firepower).
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Re: Pain filled lessons from DoomRL, a newbie's survival guide.
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2010, 06:22 »

Use combat shotgun for scouting or taking out enemies which are on the edge of your LOS (or in corridors). Use double shotgun when you're close and there are many enemies (or you just need extra firepower).
The more technical answer is that the combat shotgun has a tighter grouping (and thus less spread) than the double shotgun.  Given the current bugs with LOS, you might prefer a double shotgun when shooting from doorways to either side of an alley due to the better spread than the combat shotgun, but be aware of the reloading times and the fact that damage resistance from armour is applied on all three dice rolls.
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Re: Pain filled lessons from DoomRL, a newbie's survival guide.
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2010, 06:55 »

thx guys :)
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