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Author Topic: [M|AoMr|100%|25|YAAM] They told me that Dualgunner was better.  (Read 2450 times)

C4Cypher

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I stuck with Finesse and Juggler anyway ...

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (v.0.9.9.1) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 C4Cypher, level 9 Cacodemon Sergeant Major, defeated the Cyberdemon
 on level 25 of the Phobos base.
 He survived 94474 turns and scored 77090 points.
 He played for 5 hours, 49 minutes and 52 seconds.
 He didn't like it too rough.

 He killed 342 out of 342 hellspawn. (100%)
 This ass-kicking marine killed all of them!
 He was an Angel of Marksmanship!


-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  Medal of Prejudice
  Hell Champion Medal

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  ...........................................................
  ...........................................................
  .........................................................##
  ...................................###...................#>
  ....................###............###...................##
  .........###........###............###.....................
  .........###........###........}...........................
  .........###...................|...........................
  ..............................||##............###..###.....
  ..............................X###............###..###.....
  ................................##............###..###.....
  ...............###.........................................
  ..###.....##...###....................###..................
  ..###.....###..###..........###.......###..................
  ..###.....###...............###.......###..................
  ............................###............................
  ...........................................................
  ...........................................................
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 31/50   Experience 33264/9
  ToHit Ranged +4  ToHit Melee +4  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +0

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

    Finesse          (Level 2)
    Son of a gun     (Level 3)
    Eagle Eye        (Level 2)
    Juggler          (Level 1)
    Whizkid          (Level 1)

  Fin->SoG->SoG->Jug->SoG->Fin->WK->EE->EE->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   blue armor [1/2] (5%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   modified pistol (2d5) [2/8] (A1B1P1)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   modified protective boots [2/2] (100%) (AT)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   modified pistol (2d5) [0/8] (B1P1T1)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] 10mm ammo (x68)
    [b] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [c] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [d] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [e] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [f] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [g] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [h] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [i] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [j] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [k] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [l] phase device
    [m] phase device
    [n] homing phase device
    [o] technical mod pack
    [p] gothic boots [10/10] (180%)

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    42 former humans
    41 former sergeants
    27 former captains
    57 imps
    31 demons
    61 lost souls
    37 cacodemons
    11 barons of hell
    1 Cyberdemon
    2 hell knights
    20 arachnotrons
    1 former commando
    2 pain elementals
    2 arch-viles
    3 mancubi
    2 revenants
    2 bruiser brothers

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 3 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 15 he encoutered the Phobos Hellgate.
  Then at last he found Phobos Arena!
  On level 25 he finally defeated the Cyberdemon.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 You use a large med-pack. You feel fully healed.
 Fire -- Choose target...   The missile hits the Cyberdemon.
 You start running!
 Fire -- Choose target...   The missile hits the Cyberdemon.
 Fire -- Choose target...   The missile hits the Cyberdemon.
 You swap your weapons instantly!
 Fire -- Choose target...   The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The Cyberdemon
 fires! You are hit!
 Fire -- Choose target...   The missile hits the Cyberdemon.
 Fire -- Choose target...   The missile hits the Cyberdemon.
 Fire -- Choose target...   The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The Cyberdemon
 reloads his rocket launcher.
 Fire -- Choose target...   The missile hits the Cyberdemon.
 Fire -- Choose target...   The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The Cyberdemon
 dies. You feel relatively safe now. Congratulations! You defeated

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 Before him 103 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 72 of those were killed.
 And 11 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 Some rumours though, say that the Cyberdemon was killed already!
 Is he immortal? 20 souls claim to have killed him...
 2 sacrificed itself for the good of mankind.
 16 killed the bastard and survived.
 2 showed that it can outsmart hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

And EE2?  Yeah, I wanted Int ...  I'm surprised, I'm not sure if it was my avoidance of special levels, or the unusually light sprinkling of viles, I somehow cleared everything but only ended up at level 9 when I got to Cybie.
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Re: [M|AoMr|100%|25|YAAM] They told me that Dualgunner was better.
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2010, 23:49 »

It was your avoidance of special levels, vile revives don't give exp unless it's the monster's first death (the Mortuary comes to mind).

edit: Why would anyone EVER skip chained court on M is beyond me, it's just free exp and ammo.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 01:18 by Deathwind »
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Re: [M|AoMr|100%|25|YAAM] They told me that Dualgunner was better.
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2010, 02:25 »

Chained Court FTW! Anyway nice stack of mods... In my previous run I went for SoGx3 first, but I'll try Fin->SoG->SoG->Jug, it seems pretty reasonable. Good job.
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C4Cypher

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Re: [M|AoMr|100%|25|YAAM] They told me that Dualgunner was better.
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2010, 05:06 »

I skipped Chained court simply because ... frankly, I knew I was cheesing this run, even without Dualgunner, I wanted the challenge of 100%, but I am not going to pull crazy stunts like zerk walking lava in order to clear the Chained Court (If I were clearing on standard, I'd be using the rocket launcher from Arena to breach the walls and fight the fun stuff hidden in the creamy center.

I feel a little guilty, simply because the only reason I felt the need to put up this Mortem is that people were ribbing me about not taking Dualgunner.  I wanted the self-imposed challenge of YAAMing with a juggler build because M is starting to get to a point where it's not as much of a challenge.  This is a shock for me to say, because I remember how insanely difficult the transition from E to M was for me.

I initially tried going Fin->Jug->Sog ... but I quickly found that I was woefully underpowered and under speed for Arena as a result.  Fin->SoG-> or SoG->SoG->Fin-> gives you the freedom to pick up juggler whenever your firing speed outstrips your magazine capacity (getting a bulk mod at the beginning really helps in this regard, I find you don't need Jug quite so early).  Turns out, the build is about fire speed. For kicks I tech modded one of my pistols, and got the fire time down to .22 a sec.  I know that's not nearly as much fire output as the .36 with dualgunner and two rounds, but with the right mods (focusing on front loading one pistol in the hopes of getting a Unique for the other), you should be blistering through enemies.  With B1P1T1, I was dropping Barons before they could get a shot off.

I'm not kidding



This one cheated ... I still killed him before he got a shot off.
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Re: [M|AoMr|100%|25|YAAM] They told me that Dualgunner was better.
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2010, 06:52 »

I skipped Chained court simply because ... frankly, I knew I was cheesing this run, even without Dualgunner, I wanted the challenge of 100%, but I am not going to pull crazy stunts like zerk walking lava in order to clear the Chained Court (If I were clearing on standard, I'd be using the rocket launcher from Arena to breach the walls and fight the fun stuff hidden in the creamy center).
You make this sound like I don't run Chained Court and lavazerk every single game, sometimes even when I have a rocket launcher. Halls of Carnage is another special level that there's absolutely no reason not to play it, even if you can't equip the BFG. Personally I like to do the Armory whenever it's available, but the lack of healing can make things harder down the road.

I feel a little guilty, simply because the only reason I felt the need to put up this Mortem is that people were ribbing me about not taking Dualgunner.  I wanted the self-imposed challenge of YAAMing with a juggler build because M is starting to get to a point where it's not as much of a challenge.  This is a shock for me to say, because I remember how insanely difficult the transition from E to M was for me.
I'll be impressed when you start doing this on (at least) HMP without the help of special pistols. Have you completed Arena Gold (Hell's Arena AoMr/UV) yet? Looks like you're more than good enough with pistols to collect that one. Also, if you're looking for a challenge, maybe you should try some more of the...um...challenges. AoI and AoPu are a great way to become ultra-conserved in your tactics.


I initially tried going Fin->Jug->Sog ... but I quickly found that I was woefully underpowered and under speed for Arena as a result.  Fin->SoG-> or SoG->SoG->Fin-> gives you the freedom to pick up juggler whenever your firing speed outstrips your magazine capacity (getting a bulk mod at the beginning really helps in this regard, I find you don't need Jug quite so early).  Turns out, the build is about fire speed. For kicks I tech modded one of my pistols, and got the fire time down to .22 a sec.  I know that's not nearly as much fire output as the .36 with dualgunner and two rounds, but with the right mods (focusing on front loading one pistol in the hopes of getting a Unique for the other), you should be blistering through enemies.  With B1P1T1, I was dropping Barons before they could get a shot off.
H'okay, maybe I should just do a comparison of single pistol vs. DG.

Damage: Virtual tie. Power mods are in the single pistol's favor, but their appearance varies from game to game.
Speed: Single pistol by a slim margin. In many cases, this won't make enough of a difference (given that pistols are so freaking fast anyway).
Reloading: Virtual tie. MGK (which is a route of DG) can auto-reload after shots, which is in Dualgunner's favor, but is not by any means a foregone conclusion in such a build.
Accuracy: Dualgunner. More shots means more chances to hit (rapid-fire argument).
DPS: Dualgunner by a landslide. The 80% difference in overall firing will kill enemies much faster. Power (and bulk) mods can tip the scale, but not nearly enough.
Mod use: Single pistol. This, of course, depends not only on the mods you find and how many, but if WK even comes into the picture.
Conservation: Single pistol. Dualgunner can waste shots as a result of killing the enemy on the first bullet, but one gun does not have this issue.

The most important consideration, however, is really trait selection. Your substitution for DG appears to be Jug, which allows for more shots before reloading. My question to you is this: can you choose DG and still wield a single pistol when it is more convenient? Yes, of course you can. The fact that you CAN dual-wield pistols does not mean you are going to do so in every situation. Sometimes you're low on ammo or you have a P3 and an unmodded. Sometimes you're going to get a special pistol, and the second pistol is getting in the way. That you have the freedom to have options is far more useful than limiting yourself to one or the other.

Truth be told, the single pistol option only comes into play as a serious decision when you're using other weapons. The trait analysis only matters in AoMr, basically: DG makes less sense with Jug is being used as a way to swap to that missile launcher. However, in the case of AoMr, there are far fewer situations that require both careful ammo conservation and lack of cover than not. If you're in frequently the position where that 1.2sec makes a huge difference, I may question your competence as a pistol user.
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C4Cypher

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Re: [M|AoMr|100%|25|YAAM] They told me that Dualgunner was better.
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2010, 11:23 »

Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive about the Chained Court thing, it's nice to have a sanity check on skipping special levels that are only relevant outside AoMr and AoB.

I know I was being full of myself here, what really spelled it out to me was looking at my mortem after I posted it, and looking at the kill counts to those of mortems posted on higher difficulties. I know that statistically speaking, single pistols would not

I started this more to test a build more to impress anyone, I let it emotionally snowball when I started to pick up the 100% bit as a way to keep things more challenging. The transition from E to M was incredibly painful, yet once I started to get a few M wins under my belt, actually learning to play with the added mob count and normal ammo and powerups. I adapted much more quickly, to my own surprise, I expected M to stay hard, instead E runs are painfully boring now.

Yes, the transition from M to H is easier, but I got really spooked by winning my first H run (especially when told that I would die a lot) ... and even more badly spooked by, a pistol wielder's wet dream of a run in terms of mods and other 'fun stuff'. Still trying to process that one mentally.  I'm afraid to try a third, honestly, simply due to the simply bizarre flukes that started to happen once I started to run H. I bow in gratitude and humility to the RNG God, who has bestowed his blessings upon one so unworthy.



The input on the pistol comparison is hugely helpful. I should really use the stuff posted in the Minor article and start working out my own stats.

I've gotten what really intended out of this, and that was lessons learned concerning my non-AoMr build.  Fin->Jug->SoGxSoB ... starting early with shotguns and then transitioning to pistols once the DPS traits are up, very, very flexible build.

First thing that I've learned is that Juggler isn't worth a hill of beans if you don't have damage to leverage with that flexibility and swap bonus. It's almost pointless to take early in an AoMr build until damage and speed catch up with magazine capacity, whereas early in a standard run it gives you many options as far as rapidly cycling through pistols and shotguns, and stays useful as you progress through unloading your arsenal, starting with your pistols or Unique/Exotic equipped weapons and then working down the line with your shotguns and other 'standard' weapons without reloading.

Second thing I've learned is that you CAN use dualgunner in this build, without worrying about the ammo expenditure, as you've got so many other weapons you could keep ready in that prepared slot, keeping dual pistols only if you really need them, giving yourself the capacity to switch between the ammo efficient and faster (per 'f' press) single pistol, to the devastating power of dualgunner.

Third lesson is that this build probably doesn't need the full SoB3 SoG3 ... I've learned to take SoB earlier, to give a bit more punch to your early shotguns, and then use them as you build up SoG, but at most take SoBx2 early, just to save room for other traits and get the pistols up faster.

I also realize that these things are probably apparent to those with more experience. I'm just curious as to why Juggler builds aren't mentioned more as opposed to more specialized builds which seem to be what most people focus on.  I enjoy the pistol game, but I recognize that the pistols, even when very powerful, are situational, and weak in certain situations (Pain Elemental cave?)  You're also sacrificing a lot of survivability for DPS.

Playing in a variety of different ways is fun, but I love picking one aspect of a game, preferably a road less traveled, using it, giving it my own touch, and perfecting it. Thus my unusual fixation on using and tweaking one specific build.

As always Gamehunter, thanks for the input, and the overenthusiasm tolerance.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 11:24 by C4Cypher »
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Re: [M|AoMr|100%|25|YAAM] They told me that Dualgunner was better.
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2010, 13:30 »

Specialized builds tend to simplify resource management. (Ridiculously so in the case of MAc, of course.)
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Re: [M|AoMr|100%|25|YAAM] They told me that Dualgunner was better.
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2010, 22:19 »

I know I was being full of myself here, what really spelled it out to me was looking at my mortem after I posted it, and looking at the kill counts to those of mortems posted on higher difficulties. I know that statistically speaking, single pistols would not
Looks like you forgot something. :P

I started this more to test a build more to impress anyone...
I understood as much. Testing builds is as important a part of learning as painstakingly committing to conservative tactics. Of course, that doesn't mean you need to be posting mortems every time it works out for you. While there is nothing wrong with mortems, I tend only to bother posting them here if they are of particular importance, with badge-getting as the highest priority. What I'm getting at, I suppose, is that mortems aren't limited only to the mortem forum: if you want to discuss a build in Discussion and have mortems to back up your findings, go for it. Beginners aside (and I wouldn't call you that anymore) this place is for sweet victories, not padded resumes.

The input on the pistol comparison is hugely helpful. I should really use the stuff posted in the Minor article and start working out my own stats.
Heh, we really need to do something about that page on the Wiki. It's not linked to anything, either.

I happened to write up the DPS comparison myself, but it needs some fixing since I last revised it. There's actually no difference between firing types for the combat shotgun, for instance: in fact, it's more likely that reloading the shells individually will take less time. Lemme go take care of those errors now, actually.

I've gotten what really intended out of this, and that was lessons learned concerning my non-AoMr build.  Fin->Jug->SoGxSoB ... starting early with shotguns and then transitioning to pistols once the DPS traits are up, very, very flexible build.

1. Juggler isn't worth a hill of beans if you don't have damage to leverage with that flexibility and swap bonus.

2. You CAN use dualgunner in this build, without worrying about the ammo expenditure, as you've got so many other weapons you could keep ready in that prepared slot, keeping dual pistols only if you really need them, giving yourself the capacity to switch between the ammo efficient and faster (per 'f' press) single pistol, to the devastating power of dualgunner.

3. This build probably doesn't need the full SoB3 SoG3...
As pistol-hybrid builds go, starting with Fin->Jug is a pretty good idea.

I also realize that these things are probably apparent to those with more experience. I'm just curious as to why Juggler builds aren't mentioned more as opposed to more specialized builds which seem to be what most people focus on.  I enjoy the pistol game, but I recognize that the pistols, even when very powerful, are situational, and weak in certain situations (Pain Elemental cave?)  You're also sacrificing a lot of survivability for DPS.
It's hard to say that there's such a thing as a "Juggler build" because it's also hard to think of an entire strategy that revolves around that one trait (which is what a titular build usually implies). Pistols require SoG to be truly effective; rapid-fire require SoB and EE for the most part; dual shotguns/combats/doubles only last so long before enemies are surviving all your shots. Juggler is more of a complementary than it is a supplementary: has great situational use (and therefore worth spending the point) but cannot be solely relied on.

I've tinkered with a shotgun/explosives hybrid that plays out as Fin->Jug->Fin->(WK, Rel)->(Tan, HR, Iro) which has had some degree of success. The idea is that you rely early on the shotgun's punching power, then make your way to RL and BFG as time passes and use those for major damage later on. Juggler is required because explosive weapons cannot be used safely in close quarters and so you need a reliable means to swap out. In addition, it's a flexible strategy that allows for WK whenever you get mods for it, and the defensive traits will keep you healthy even if the explosives don't work out.

As to your lessons learned:

1. There are two reasons for Juggler: to maximize DPS between two weapons, and to reliably make use of several weapons in the heat of battle. In one game I was fortunate enough to get my hands on a BFG10K (during an MAc build no less) but the splash and recoil made it impractical in hallways. However, with Juggler, I could carry it as my active weapon at all times and swap for a plasma rifle if the situation called for it, and still keep the missile launcher in my prepared slot if the situation called for it as well.

2. Yes, this is the point I was making in my last post. Single-pistol builds can be pretty fun though, not to mention a foregone conclusion for the coveted Marksman Diamond (although I don't want you to worry about THAT badge just yet).

3. This depends on what kind of timing you want before your pistols become your means of DPS. On the other hand, racking up SoB for the sake of a combat shotgun isn't worth a whole lot of damage. You're probably saving on about 10% of your shells (at best, which is to say against formers and imps) and the difference in number of shots against the big guys is much less, even with the full SoBx3. If you don't plan on using the pistols until much later, by all means. You'll find that higher difficulties make it a lot harder to delay it, however.
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C4Cypher

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Re: [M|AoMr|100%|25|YAAM] They told me that Dualgunner was better.
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2010, 10:13 »

I'm currently running this build (yeah, I call it Desperado, but I'm going to stick with my 'juggler build' until I actually have something conclusive) on Ao100.  What I'm finding is that taking one or two points in SoB early contribute to all weapons, especially when you eventually pick up a plasma.

Early game, your pistol/pistols are popguns, taking Jug as quickly as possible allows you to pick up the Shotgun, Combat Shotgun and Double shotgun early, giving you a lot of early game damage output. As you get deeper, find more diversified weapons to quickswap by the numbers such as the Rocket Laucher, Plasma Rifle and the BFG, you'll start to drop all but one of the shotguns depending on where you go with things, keep the Cshotty for radaring, or Dshotty for flip-out point blank damage, keeping one stack of shotgun ammo in reserve.

I've worked out Fin->Jug->SoB->SoGx3 ... but I find that point, the build you pick really can be made to fit how your game is going thus far, taking Fin->Wiz->SoB if you're getting a lot of mods, DG->SoB->Fin->EE or something like that if you really want to pump your pistols, Hell->Hell->Hell->DM if you want to catch your enemy by surprise, start with the initiative with each encounter, and give yourself more survivability, or even perhaps EE->EE->Int->Int ... or  even most insane, if you're getting enough XP,  SoB->EE->EE->Int->MCe.

Rather than sticking to a strict string of traits, I'm finding myself only pushing as far as that second or third SoG before I find that I can flex or twist the build to suit how the run is going, and what I'm picking up, and it's a whole lot of fun to spill out a combination of 6 to 12 pistol rounds, 1 to 7 shotgun rounds, a plasma burst, a rocket, and/or even a BFG round before the enemy has time to think.
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