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Author Topic: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them?  (Read 8102 times)

Gargulec

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Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them?
« on: December 30, 2010, 17:15 »

So, after bazzlinoth stupid death caused by the maze level layout more than anything and short chat with Malek, I am wondering if it would not be better for the game to remove the maze level type from it altogether. Such levels are boring, unfairly dangerous and overall un-fun. It is not a good sign if a players groans out of annoyance upon being spawned in such place.

Of course, this would also decrease the overall variety of levels, and that would be horrible... so, well, what is your opinion?
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Re: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2010, 17:19 »

In keeping with the hellish nature of the game, maze levels should still be around.  Remember that those pesky Barons and Knights of Hells look like minotaurs in disguise, and what better place to have them than in a maze?

But the number of mazes need to be reduced, that's for sure.  We're playing DoomRL, not Pacman.  An alternative is to have a maze level full of teleports.  =D

Actually, on further thought, perhaps it would be great if we made the corridors of the maze levels wider than just that one sliver of a tile.  That way, we still maintain the map type, without the drawbacks of random deathtraps that should never have been there in the first place.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 17:24 by thelaptop »
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Re: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2010, 17:31 »

Such levels are boring, unfairly dangerous and overall un-fun. It is not a good sign if a players groans out of annoyance upon being spawned in such place.
Why, Hell is not supposed to be a safe and fun place either...! :P

Seriously now; wouldn't it be more fun to simply make the maze levels less complex?
I'm making a wild guess here but I think instead of a spaghetti of 1-tile wide hallways, why not make it a macaroni (heh) of 2- and/or 3-tile wide hallways (with maybe a few narrow 1-tile ones).
It'd make the level 1) Easier to navigate, 2) More space to fight and dodge, 3) Not too sophisticated, so the player has less of a hard time to find paths.

EDIT: Well, thelaptop in the meantime already suggested the same.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 17:32 by Mrazerty »
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Gargulec

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Re: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2010, 18:07 »

This idea I can get behind. Edited the poll.
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Re: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them?
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2010, 13:37 »

They are a part of the game, it would be silly to remove them all together.
They are anoying yes, but I couldn't imagine this game without them either..

Personaly speaking, make them just bit more rarer. Thats all.

While you're at it, make hellish caverns rare aswell, now THOSE are seriously un fun.
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Re: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them?
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2010, 15:00 »

I don't mind mazes; I greatly prefer them to the wide-open levels (city, cave).
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Re: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them?
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2010, 15:58 »

I'd like if there was random empty places in mazes.
And, maybe, the special level maze with minotaurs B's.
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Re: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them?
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2011, 16:05 »

Well, we got five different level types already:

Maze of Rooms
Hellish Caves
Maze
Arena
Hellish City

This is roughly in the order they can appear (Maze of Rooms is always on floor 2, cave/maze can be right after that, I've seen Arenas as early as floor 5, cities come right about there). Any of these level types prior to Hellgate, other than mazes, can come with random pools of water (early) or acid (late). After Hellgate, any level type including mazes can come with random pools of lava.

Enough background, though, we're all more interested in how hard they get. Early on, yes, mazes are a pain and likely the most hazardous type. As the enemy challenge level increases, however, Arenas and Hellish Caves definitely become more difficult, simply over the lack of reliable cover. Mazes at least have the benefit of providing cover, and its walls are destructible such that players can open up the area themselves. Dealing with the more vicious enemies in the game (Arachs, Viles, Mancubi, Revs) requires both offense and defense, and in Mazes you're lucky enough to be allowed these luxuries.

If you want to fix the amount of death caused by mazes, I suggest that the level type simply appear at a later time. It might be a good opportunity to introduce a new type altogether: I recall someone suggesting a warehouse, which could be simplified as big rooms (that is, doors between them) with mini-mazes filled with boxes that are easily blown away by shotgun fire. This would create the same capabilities one has later on with the Maze type, without the extra difficulty it causes in the early stages.
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Re: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them?
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2011, 17:11 »

If you want to fix the amount of death caused by mazes, I suggest that the level type simply appear at a later time.

That's not the point.  The issue is that the current maze levels have very narrow corridors to the point that even if you were completely equipped with full life, one stray blast from something out of your field of vision can just reduce you to nothing.  That's just not even remotely fair -- we want hard games, but we also want them to be fair enough.  Having the maze levels appearing later is probably not going to help this point; it'll just delay the eventual swearing when the same thing occurs to the well-equipped Doomguy at that stage.
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Re: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them?
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2011, 18:05 »

The issue is that the current maze levels have very narrow corridors to the point that even if you were completely equipped with full life, one stray blast from something out of your field of vision can just reduce you to nothing....Having the maze levels appearing later is probably not going to help this point; it'll just delay the eventual swearing when the same thing occurs to the well-equipped Doomguy at that stage.
Which is why you can do this:

Mazes at least have the benefit of providing cover, and its walls are destructible such that players can open up the area themselves.
On the other hand, you're not expected to have a utility-based stash of rockets until later on, where enemies that drop them start to appear. That's why Warehouses (big rooms with easily-removed crate mazes) before Mazes (mostly hallways but filled with rocket-destroyable walls) would be a reasonable answer. If players can't figure out how to modify the terrain to their advantage while being "well-equipped," they might deserve that kind of death. Dying in a second to something unknown until that second is a pretty common death, however, and will happen even in Hellish Cities: learning to avoid situations where these happen is part of the journey to getting some serious victories.

While I can't provide a screenshot at the moment, maze levels tend to be random when it comes to the layout, not only in terms of twists and turns but the width of hallways. You'll see the narrow variety often, true, but wide mazes exist (probably just as often) and still have the same problems, if not moreso (as you can fit more monsters in a wide hallway to suddenly attack you). Furthermore, narrow hallways can also happen in the Maze of Rooms layout (and are indeed the bane of Berserkers and Pacifists everywhere).

If you want to get rid of narrow hallways, rather than the Maze type, I think I can get behind that.
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Re: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them?
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2011, 19:12 »

Having the maze levels appearing later is probably not going to help this point; it'll just delay the eventual swearing when the same thing occurs to the well-equipped Doomguy at that stage.
... nd make it more intense. :>
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Re: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them?
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2011, 19:18 »

Here's a wide-maze example:


You picked up a small med-pack.                                               
 There is a green armor [1/1] (45%) lying here.                                 
 ##############################################################################
 #.................0.....#........#................0............#..#........#.#
 #.0.....................#........#.....#.......................#..#....0...#.#
 #..###################..####..#######..#..#.....####..#..####..#..#..#..#..#.#
 #................................#.....#..#.....#..#..#..#........#..#..#..#.#
 #..........0.....................#.....#..#.....#..#..#..#.....#..#..#..#..#.#
 ####........#..#..#.#####..#.....####..#..#..#..#..#..#..####..#..#.#####..#.#
 #...........#..#..#........#.....#........#..#.....#..#..#..............#..#.#
 #.....0.....#..#..#.0......#.....#.....%%.#..#.....#..#..#............>.#..#.#
 #############..#..#..#####.####%.####..########%...#..#..#%....#####.#..#..#.#
 #..........0...#..#......%%#..........%.%..%...%.%.#..#.%#%%.........#.0...#.#
 #..............#...........#...................%%.....#..#%%.........#.....#.#
 #.########..####..##############.#.###########..#%.#######........#..#.....#.#
 #..............#.................#.......%....%%#........#........#..#.......#
 #..............#.................#...0..........#0...%...#........#..#.......#
 #..#.....#.....#..##############.#############..#.....#..#.#####..#..#..######
 #@}#.....#.....#................................#.....#...........#..#.......#
 #..#.....#.....#................................#.....#......................#
 ##############################################################################
                                                                               
 Game Hunter                Armor : green armor [1/1] (100%)                   
 Health: 74%  Exp:  3/93%   Weapon: combat shotgun (7d3) [5/5]                 
 cautious                                                    Phobos Base  Lev4 

There are SOME narrow passageways but it's mostly pretty big in general. This also gives rise to some rather nasty pockets of enemies, though.
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Re: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them?
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2011, 19:35 »

Here's a wide-maze example:


You picked up a small med-pack.                                               
 There is a green armor [1/1] (45%) lying here.                                 
 ##############################################################################
 #.................0.....#........#................0............#..#........#.#
 #.0.....................#........#.....#.......................#..#....0...#.#
 #..###################..####..#######..#..#.....####..#..####..#..#..#..#..#.#
 #................................#.....#..#.....#..#..#..#........#..#..#..#.#
 #..........0.....................#.....#..#.....#..#..#..#.....#..#..#..#..#.#
 ####........#..#..#.#####..#.....####..#..#..#..#..#..#..####..#..#.#####..#.#
 #...........#..#..#........#.....#........#..#.....#..#..#..............#..#.#
 #.....0.....#..#..#.0......#.....#.....%%.#..#.....#..#..#............>.#..#.#
 #############..#..#..#####.####%.####..########%...#..#..#%....#####.#..#..#.#
 #..........0...#..#......%%#..........%.%..%...%.%.#..#.%#%%.........#.0...#.#
 #..............#...........#...................%%.....#..#%%.........#.....#.#
 #.########..####..##############.#.###########..#%.#######........#..#.....#.#
 #..............#.................#.......%....%%#........#........#..#.......#
 #..............#.................#...0..........#0...%...#........#..#.......#
 #..#.....#.....#..##############.#############..#.....#..#.#####..#..#..######
 #@}#.....#.....#................................#.....#...........#..#.......#
 #..#.....#.....#................................#.....#......................#
 ##############################################################################
                                                                               
 Game Hunter                Armor : green armor [1/1] (100%)                   
 Health: 74%  Exp:  3/93%   Weapon: combat shotgun (7d3) [5/5]                 
 cautious                                                    Phobos Base  Lev4 

There are SOME narrow passageways but it's mostly pretty big in general. This also gives rise to some rather nasty pockets of enemies, though.
I think this is more of RNG luck.  I have cases where it was mostly narrow ones in a nasty way.  I think it boils down to how to tweak the generation algorithm to create more of such mazes (as in your screenshot) as opposed to the ones that we see more often [with more narrow corridors].
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atat

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Re: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them?
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2011, 02:37 »

Personally I like maze level's they provide plenty of cover.
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Re: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them?
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2011, 06:38 »

Personally I like maze level's they provide plenty of cover.
And always full of fun surprises! >^_^<
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